Long term balance effect desired?

[duff]

Would it be too hard to do an aging roll on all players i a team after every (5 maybe?) games?

[GalakStarscraper]

if thats the case then testing will show that to be the case

i don't believe it will there are 2 leagues already testing it online you could make a team in to prove it

put your money where your mouth is ;]

Tim/Mestari/Grumble

When the MBBL starts up I'm going to try it without the negative treasury rule just to see what happens. IE negative winnings will not be able to reduce your treasury below zero. That combined with the freebooted apothecary could be enough to give us the balance we are looking for and avoid some extra rules clutter at the same time. Its will also completly end these arguments of the "endless spiral" that I'm getting even from the BBRC members I'm discussing with.

Grumble if Ski already programmed it in ... keep on testing it. But I've been worn down enough to agree that testing the simpler version has merit.

Galak

[Grumbledook]

yer no plans to remove it now i don't think the spiral will happen

we just started running a cup to get the big teams in dx to start playing again

hopefully we will start seeing some results

[DarkHorse]

This is my first post, but being brave I jump in with both feet on this subject.

I would agree with a couple others who have suggested separating the aging and skill rolls. I would prefer to keep a slightly modified version of the current system, where players roll for aging after appearing in 5-10 games, regardless of how many skills they have accumulated.

Also, being a High Elf coach who watched two line elves die in my first game when I couldn't afford an apothecary (I hate werewolves ) nor more than 11 players to start... I'd like to see the option of either buying the apo up front, or freebooting it for a game or two until you can afford to buy. Or possibly even rent to own, 10k for the first five games, then he's on your roster for the rest of the season.

my 2 coppers

[Skummy]

we just started running a cup to get the big teams in dx to start playing again hopefully we will start seeing some results

Any verdict on this yet, or is more playtesting needed?

[Pardus]

Mix Neg Winnings+Freeboot Apoth with Stepped Handicap Table and it's sweet

tho i still think a few things need playtesting in these rules

[DoubleSkulls]

Any verdict on this yet, or is more playtesting needed?

FUMBBL DivX is playing Freebooted apoths, niggles at half time & negative winnings.

It looks like its working, but that's my impression - not backed up by any hard stats.

[GalakStarscraper]

MBBL2 is showing pretty much the same thing so far.

FUMBBL's highest TR team right now is 317. I don't know if Grumble and Ski had a chance to program in the 2 winnings bands to the right of the normal table as some of the gold rolls I'm seeing in the top team's history still look a bit high if the extra two bands were added.

However, they've got teams now with 50+ games played with the rules and only a handful broke TR 300.

It would have worked ... pretty convinced of that now. And I think we could have changed it so that negative winnings could eat into your treasury only until it was zero (ie not have the debt rules) and then let the freeboot apothecary rules take care of the rest.

This experiment was not for nothing though. A lot of this data was used to build some of the experimental rules coming up. So while it won't be the package ... the package was worth the time of testing to see the impact.

Thanks to everyone who tried it out.

Galak

[Havoc]

Anyone thought about that this favors high AV teams? As they get fewer nigglies they don´t suffer from the new rules as much as amazons, norse and elves.

[Princelucianus]

So, let's return to good old ageing, which is quite fun and works fine. It's also really simple to use and it makes progressing players more exciting than ever.

Lucy

[Mirascael]

Anyone thought about that this favors high AV teams? As they get fewer nigglies they don´t suffer from the new rules as much as amazons, norse and elves.

Actually I think this gives low AV-teams a chance to stay competitive at a higher TR. From my experience "ageing" hits low AV teams the hardest, it is next to impossible to recover a damaged woodie-side under the current "ageing" rules, their players are skillless, expensive and likely to get injured frequently due to AV 7, "ageing" is really over the top for them (once you get that odd surviving lineelf those desperately needed skills he's already prone to "ageing"), whereas most str-sides can either replace their losses with players who are already complete.
For my rather high rated orc team (about TR 250) I must say that the freebooted apoth far better keeps its TR within a reasonable range than "ageing" did before.
These new rules are also far superior in early team development. Playing an undead side in a new divX-league with fixed schedule (C.O.S.M.), I was able to kill a Saurus in the first game and niggling two woodies in the second. Without freebooted apoth the teams would most likely have faced retirement after just one game, being able to apoth them gave their coaches the chance to stick with their teams. This is a very desirable effect if you want the game to be attractive for new players, much better than the lame so-called "ageing" rules which can give you early injuries for no reason (my faction team suffered 3 first skill "ageings" out of 13 skills and 2 second skill "ageings" out 5, one player niggled on both skills), and only causes new players to abandon the game altogether.
If you want the game to prosper and be attractive for new players then skip "ageing" and go with those new rules helping new teams/coaches and targetting high-TR teams specifically.

So, let's return to good old ageing, which is quite fun and works fine. It's also really simple to use and it makes progressing players more exciting than ever.

"Ageing" is neither fun (I actually consider now and then to abandon the game altogether since "ageing" actually spoils all the fun too frequently), neither does it work (teams with expensive skillless players aren't competitive at a high TR) nor does it add any excitement with regard to player progression (it only adds frustration if new players age, especially in new teams).

[Princelucianus]

Every league has it's own experiences. We have three high rated woodelf teams who are only still beatable because of ageing. And it made teammanagament more interesting for orcs and dwarves who normally only lose a player in x matches, where now an aged player makes it more needed to manage your team instead of saving money to buy your 8th reroll.
Furhermore, for rookie players it's still only a 2+ on 2d6's. If people disagree with this rule most of all, then I woulkd recommend dropping the first ageing role.
Our league is nicely balanced because of ageing. High rated teams can be hit hard by it, or have a stroke of luck, but in the end most teams got a period where they had to manage their team to a compromise squad (like a 280+ woodelf squad with 6 NI players. These are mostly great players..... Will he sack them or keep a few?).

So, it definitely balances things out in our league. Some rookie teams get unlucky, but chances are very small and rebuilding is always possible.

Lucy

[Skummy]

Anyone thought about that this favors high AV teams? As they get fewer nigglies they don´t suffer from the new rules as much as amazons, norse and elves.

Don't forget Skaven, who are arguably worse off than Woodies with this rule. They don't have any skills either, but also lack the agility to get away from the bashers.

I pretty much unearthed this topic to hear about the feedback from fumbbl, though. Grumbledook, if you're out there, what do you think of the results so far?

[reservoirelves]

We have plenty of experience with aging and I know that Neg winning/FB apoth is being playtested. I was wondering if anyone has though about using just the new handicap table (or a variant) to encourage TR management?

[IronAge_Man]

I like the no-aging/negative winnings system, both for giving teams an apothecary for their first game, and the newfound pleasure in skill rolls.

One change that is needed is to the FF table; atm, it favours bashy teams, as they generally get 2 TDs and 2 cas (+2 modifier) a game, whereas a Wood Elf team winning 5-0 and causing no cas gets only +1.

Add an additional modifier for scoring 4+ TDs for very light-weight, heavy-scoring teams to help them maintain the high FF needed for the negative innings system. Alternatively, adopt the more complicated 2d6 system I saw somewhere (I believe in the CHUBB website).