True Running Team

[m0nty_au]

leblanc, I never nominated a race for that team. I agree that a ST4 human is hard to justify, unless as you say they are called barbarians or something - in which case Frenzy would suit the fluff better, Norse-style. I was just juggling numbers.

[leblanc13]

I'm sorry. The original poster suggested that they be Tileans which are a human based race. I think that Teabags intention was for a human based team from the start.

Sorry about the confusion.

[plasmoid]

Hi Teabag,
wow! You're in a fighting mood. I'll try for brief replies to your points.

I agree that team balance isn't only in the cost. I do however believe that it is possible to be able to buy too many powerful players.

I think it makes perfect sense to base the discussion on official teams. Teams that failed to make the step from experimental to official are probably flawed, and are likely to be changed.
I'm not "bringing up official teams only" in my defense. I seriously think that these set the bar. I'm sure you wouldn't want stats for the homemade teams in my league either

The "stunties" I refereed to where the teams consisting of mainly players with stunty skill -halflings and goblins, not dwarfs. My mistake. The amazon were mentioned after the "stunties" as the lowest costed team which is not a joke (halfling/gobbo) team.

I thought that more than 9 official teams were in the 800-900K range. Did you include big guys? Maybe my numbers have gone old

Still, I consider 1000K+ a dangerous place to take a homemade team.
Especially since many people on this board will prefer that homemade teams are low-end rather than high-end.

No offense intended.
Martin

[Teabag]

Hi Teabag,
wow! You're in a fighting mood.

Sorry. I really didn't mean to cause offence. Sometimes I post first and think later, if you know what I mean!

I think it makes perfect sense to base the discussion on official teams. Teams that failed to make the step from experimental to official are probably flawed, and are likely to be changed.
I'm not "bringing up official teams only" in my defense. I seriously think that these set the bar. I'm sure you wouldn't want stats for the homemade teams in my league either

Yes, agreed. But to be fair, you originally did not specify your theory was based solely on official teams.

The "stunties" I refereed to where the teams consisting of mainly players with stunty skill -halflings and goblins, not dwarfs. My mistake.

Oops! No, my mistake. Sorry. I see the word stunties and assume Dwarves. How fantasy-racist of me! I see now (with a clearer head) that you were referring to players with the Stunty trait.

The amazon were mentioned after the "stunties" as the lowest costed team which is not a joke (halfling/gobbo) team.

Okay, just to be pedantic, picky and way OTT, even you excluded the two Stunty teams (Goblins and Halflings) the Amazons would still not be the lowest costed team. Their total cost is 790k. The Undead team has a total cost of 750K.

I thought that more than 9 official teams were in the 800-900K range. Did you include big guys?

Yeah, I included Big Guys.

Sorry again if my post seemed a bit singed around the edges (i.e. flame-like).

Terri

[Alesdair]

H0w about

0-12 Lineman 6 3 3 8 None (General) 50,000 gp
0-4 Blocker 4 4 2 9 (General, Strength) 90,000 gp
0-4 Runner 8 2 3 8 Sure Hands, Dodge, Sidestep (General, Agility) 100,000 gp

Re-Roll Cost: 60,000 gp

This is more specilisation, and perhaps more fun to play... and it doen't break JJ's rules... (does it?)
The runner's don't need ST, or even ST access... and i dropped the guard to get the blockers below 100k...

I can't see this team doing a passing game... at leat they are not designed for it...

I jsut did PH's spreadsheet... and this one i'm suggesting is just a bit more powerful then humans... so it's quite good balances...

However, to make it a more running team it would be Lizardmen...

[plasmoid]

Hi Terri,
No harm done. Let's call a truce with cake, buns and everything

I went home and checked my numbers, and they aren't as bad as you make them out to be:
>The Undead team has a total cost of 750K.
Yep. I missed the recent loss of 2 wights. Oops.
However, I think that maybe you missed that the same happened to the necro team?
I count 10 teams in the 900K-830K bracket, being indeed "most" of the 19.
(human, orc, chaos, skaven, CD, norse, dwarf, lizard, khemri, necro).

Also, 2 more things:
You originally stated that Ogres were 1320K. Beside the fact that they are horribly broken, they are in fact just 1080K, (Annual 2003: 8 ogres + 3 gobbos).

You also put vamps at 690K. The Annual03 version was certainly higher. I'm not completely up to speed with the playtest versions, but I haven't seen anything weaker than 0-6 vamps @ 110K(?) and thralls @ 40K, putting them around 860K.

Time to stop the nitpicking
Below is the list. There may be mistakes, but AFAIK no big ones:
[Edited to include the miscalc spotted by Teabag]

Wood Elf: 1030K
Dark Elf: 1010K
"Pro" Elf: 940K
High Elf: 930K
Rotters: 920K
Human: 900K
Necro: 890K
Orc: 880K
Chaos: 880K
Skaven: 870K
CDwarf: 870K
Norse: 860K
Dwarf: 850K
Lizard: 850K
Khemri: 850K
Amazon: 790K
Undead: 750K
Gobbo: 560K
Halflings: 490K

Cheers
Martin

[Teabag]

However, I think that maybe you missed that the same happened to the necro team?

Nope. Took that into account.

I count 10 teams in the 900K-830K bracket, being indeed "most" of the 19.
(human, orc, chaos, skaven, CD, norse, dwarf, lizard, khemri, necro).

Ah, but... just to be nitpicky... you said "a little under 900K". So, Humans don't count. And I wouldn't throw Dwarves in either (a 50K difference is too much), but that's just me. So half of the official teams (and probably 5/8s of the total teams) are not just a little under 900K.

You originally stated that Ogres were 1320K. Beside the fact that they are horribly broken, they are in fact just 1080K, (Annual 2003: 8 ogres + 3 gobbos).

You're absolutely correct on this. Apologies. I was going by the newer version, which has 0-12 Ogres and 0-4 Goblins. Thus, 11 Ogres = 1320K. Sorry.

You also put vamps at 690K.

No, I didn't. Don't know where you got this from, but it weren't me, guv'nor! Besides, the Vampires are around the 910K mark (don't forget the freebooted Head Coach at 90K).

Time to stop the nitpicking

NOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Never, ever, stop nitpicking!

Below is the list. There may be mistakes, but AFAIK no big ones:

Wood Elf: 1030K
Dark Elf: 1010K
"Pro" Elf: 940K
High Elf: 930K
Rotters: 920K
Human: 900K
Orc: 880K
Chaos: 880K
Skaven: 870K
CDwarf: 870K
Norse: 860K
Dwarf: 850K
Lizard: 850K
Khemri: 850K
Necro: 830K
Amazon: 790K
Undead: 750K
Gobbo: 560K
Halflings: 490K

I agree with your list in all but two cases:

Necromantics: 890,000 gp
Nurgle’s Rotters: 930,000 gp

Terri

[Tinkywinky]

The important thing with creating a new team is that it has to bring something new to the table. Some of the suggestions here can be described as "take good things from orc and humans and add them together". This creates a team that is too good.

It's important to notice that all teams with four ST 4 players have some MAJOR drawback. Orcs and chaos don't have any fast players, chaos don't even start with skills to make up for the huge advantage that the strong players is. Lizardmen have only ST 2 ballcarriers (that have no general access).

Teams with 2 strong players: Undead and necromantic teams can have no apothecarys and their scorers have no regenerate so they die all the time.

Khemri: The rest of the team isn't good for anything.

This means that four S 4 is out of the question for this team and two S 4 is a nono unless you can come up with a drawback that matches the undead teams.

A running team that doesn't look like other teams:

0-12 Linemen....6338...................G....50K
0-4 Guards.......6338..Guard........GS...80K
0-2 Runners......8338..Sure hands.GA..90K
0-2 Blitzers.......7338..Block.........GS..90K

Probably an ogre ally?

Rerolls 60 K

This team will play like... well I don't know really. Maybe a bit like Norse teams but with some speed and without passing. Anyway it should be quite different because of the guards.
I'm not sure if the guards should be as above or 5338 and -10K?

Might represent border princes teams or something like that?

[juck101]

kinda like the idea for this team....
Not sure about the verbal battering this thread is going to bring to my email; but how about half-orc. Half orc and savage orc do have figures from gw (long long time ago). m
Mixture of speed (figure were pretty naked) and strength.

Only problem not sure how to balance the runner. In my league one player will get a pretty broken team however hard. can only see with ma8 blodgers after a few games will be bit overpowered. no prob balancing roster via formula but some teams need playtesting to become valid. Will post if get to try the team in some form

[Underdog]

Hmm.. MA 8 Blodger. yep that would be overpowered

<cough>wardancer</cough>

[juck101]

yes a ma8 blodger is common for elf but not with access to guard and other strength skills. Nothing wrong with it but needs much testing if balanced. 4guard, 4-2 blodge pretty good.

[Tinkywinky]

yes a ma8 blodger is common for elf but not with access to guard and other strength skills. Nothing wrong with it but needs much testing if balanced. 4guard, 4-2 blodge pretty good.

I guess removing agility access for the runners wouldn't ruin the team totally. But catch and dodge do seem to me like important skills for a fast running strategy.

And how are you supposed to develope the runners without agility skills? Norse linemen have a problem of choosing any decent skills other then tackle, imagine the problems these scorers would get after they have obtained block. They will most likely be the players that accumulate most SPP in the team! The general skills are all defensive in nature. Without doubles the runners will be forced to get strip ball, tackle, pass block, shadowing effectively making them the opposite of what they are supposed to be.

Are two AG 3 blodgers really that much of a big deal?

And half-anything is pretty lame.
They haven't created any new WHFB races since I stopped playing that? (=about the time that the lizards showed up for the first time)

[NightDragon]

Having just read throught the whole thread, wincing at the punches, my own beliefs are that
1 A Running team would be good to see, and that it should be the basis for a new Brettonian team who would not want to throw the ball particularly.
2. Thanks to Teabag for reopening the debate, its always a juicy one. I happen to think that Tinkies is the most balanced suggestion.

Incidentally what is the link to team creation and costings? Is it on the MBBL site?

[plasmoid]

Hi Teabag
OK - a lot of this stems from the fact that my original post could have been better worded, as well as a few misunderstandings.
To re-iterate (with the fulle benefit of hindsight ) my main point:
"High team cost is not the only way that a team can be broken, but it is one of the ways. More than 900K and the proposed team is in the top ~25% of the class. Above 1000K and it's the ~top 10%. (Again, assuming teams that have made the cut to official status).
(Just) over half of the official teams are in the 850-900K bracket. 13 of the teams are between 850K-940K. I consider this significant."

So, cleaning up:
>You're absolutely correct on this. Apologies. I was going by the newer version, which
>has 0-12 Ogres and 0-4 Goblins. Thus, 11 Ogres = 1320K. Sorry.

Me too, for not remembering. See, this is the problem with unofficial teams
I've seen 3 different "official unofficial" playtest versions at Galaks, and I just can't keep track of them.

>>You also put vamps at 690K.
>No, I didn't. Don't know where you got this from, but it weren't me, guv'nor!
Check it out. In your original reply on page 1 you did put vamps at 690K.

>Necromantics: 890,000 gp
Correct. Thanks.

>Nurgle’s Rotters: 930,000 gp
The beast was reduced to 120K in the RR'03, so I still get 920K.

Cheers,
and good luck with the running team
Martin

[Tinkywinky]

Incidentally what is the link to team creation and costings? Is it on the MBBL site?

http://www.midgardbb.com/NewBBTeamBuildingGuide.html

Brettionia would seem to fit the description pretty good.

Lineman = Linemen
Guards = Squires?
Runners = Errants?
Blitzers = Knights?