Pro Elf tactics

[DoubleSkulls]

I am curious--why do you think they would not be able to "keep up" with most opponents--not sure if I misunderstood. With a MV of 8, only Gutter Runners and Wood Elf catchers would seem to have an edge n getting away from shadowing Pro Elf D-backs. Also, they wouldn't need dodge while using Shadowing right?

Okay the problem is they will just get blitzed out of the way. MA is irrelevant if you don't get to use the skill. Hence the need for sidestep and block and/or dodge.

[Underdog]

4x Lineman Offensive
Dodge, Block, Catch

I think I've never given (and I'd never give) Catch to a player unless he was a goblin, halfling or skink.

hmm, Im not to convinced its a particularly masterful move either. What would you suggest instead as a third skill?

[Underdog]

I am curious--why do you think they would not be able to "keep up" with most opponents--not sure if I misunderstood. With a MV of 8, only Gutter Runners and Wood Elf catchers would seem to have an edge n getting away from shadowing Pro Elf D-backs. Also, they wouldn't need dodge while using Shadowing right?

Okay the problem is they will just get blitzed out of the way. MA is irrelevant if you don't get to use the skill. Hence the need for sidestep and block and/or dodge.

Yes but with Shadowing and Passblock you can't be pushed out of the way of any potential recievers because as soon as the pass is declaired you can move next to the reciever and then shadow him. That way you can also cover quite a few players and potentialy shadow them when they get the ball. You will also get the benifits of pass block( the interception chance and -1 catch mod) almost as a freebe.

Dont get me wrong though Id still go for dodge first. And I would agree that if your trying to shadow a runner rather than a reciever Step asside+Shadow is a superior combo. Maybe one of each would suit?

Actually I think on second thoughts, Id probly just use my Blodge, Step aside Blitzer with Diving Tackle to cover runners. Maybe even a couple of linemen with Block and diving tackle would do ok. That would leave my Catchers free to take the reciever-killing Passblock+Shadow combo.

I Im here to be convinced otherwise though

Im not here to prove Im right by anymeans.

[Mirascael]

4x Lineman Offensive
Dodge, Block, Catch

I think I've never given (and I'd never give) Catch to a player unless he was a goblin, halfling or skink.

hmm, Im not to convinced its a particularly masterful move either. What would you suggest instead as a third skill?

Side Step of course. And Diving Tackle, Tackle, Leap, Pass Block and Shadowing are superior to Catch as well (not to mention Dirty Player and Kick).

I wouldn't even consider Catch as a 7th skill, especially if the team has access to players with Catch anyhow.

[DoubleSkulls]

Yes but with Shadowing and Passblock you can't be pushed out of the way of any potential recievers because as soon as the pass is declaired you can move next to the reciever and then shadow him.

Why would I pass to a player when you can use PB to get next to him - and probably get a rerollable 5+ on the interception? I'll either hand off (so you can't PB), pass to someone else or just make sure you can't reach.

Side Step of course. And Diving Tackle, Tackle, Leap, Pass Block and Shadowing are superior to Catch as well (not to mention Dirty Player and Kick).

I'd agree with that. Tackle & sidestep are extremely useful skills.... catch - well you can normally save the TRR for that.

The only players (other than stunties) that I'd consider taking catch on are dedicated interceptors who aren't starting with it (e.g. Gutter Runners) and even then that would be after Block, Dodge & sidestep.

[da Squighunter]

Yes but with Shadowing and Passblock you can't be pushed out of the way of any potential recievers because as soon as the pass is declaired you can move next to the reciever and then shadow him. That way you can also cover quite a few players and potentialy shadow them when they get the ball. You will also get the benifits of pass block( the interception chance and -1 catch mod) almost as a freebe.

Dont get me wrong though Id still go for dodge first. And I would agree that if your trying to shadow a runner rather than a reciever Step asside+Shadow is a superior combo. Maybe one of each would suit?

Actually I think on second thoughts, Id probly just use my Blodge, Step aside Blitzer with Diving Tackle to cover runners. Maybe even a couple of linemen with Block and diving tackle would do ok. That would leave my Catchers free to take the reciever-killing Passblock+Shadow combo.

I Im here to be convinced otherwise though

Im not here to prove Im right by anymeans.[/quote]


The skill progression for Catchers and Blitzers that you suggest seem like good combos that would totally give the team the defense they need. I think that with at least four players dedicated to purely defensive purposes (two catchers, a blitzer and a lineman--all with combinations of PB and Shadowing), the opposing team will have a hard time avoiding your ability to cover the field- i.e. he will not have many options available to avoid the odd player which will invariably be in position. You can sort of blanket the backfield in a "zone defense" that will be hard to penetrate, runners or receivers.

So, see if I got this right: Catchers with Dodge, PB, Shadow, and maybe Diving Tackle. A defensive Blitzer "linebacker" with Dlodge, Step Aside and Diving Tackle, and a Lineman or two with Block Tackle and Diving Tackle.

You all think I got it right?

[DoubleSkulls]

Yes but with Shadowing and Passblock you can't be pushed out of the way of any potential recievers because as soon as the pass is declaired you can move next to the reciever and then shadow him. That way you can also cover quite a few players and potentialy shadow them when they get the ball. You will also get the benifits of pass block( the interception chance and -1 catch mod) almost as a freebe.

You can't pass block if:
1) you are too far away
2) you are lying on the grass

Sidestep and Block/Dodge are vital skills to ensure neither of those conditions are met.

Decent coaches won't give you opportunties to use PB much - because its quite easy to avoid/blitz one or two PBers.

With these guys PB is more useful than Shadowing - which is really icing. You've got a 55% chance of making the interception so I'm sure as hell not passing over your head.

The skill progression for Catchers and Blitzers that you suggest seem like good combos that would totally give the team the defense they need. I think that with at least four players dedicated to purely defensive purposes (two catchers, a blitzer and a lineman--all with combinations of PB and Shadowing), the opposing team will have a hard time avoiding your ability to cover the field- i.e. he will not have many options available to avoid the odd player which will invariably be in position. You can sort of blanket the backfield in a "zone defense" that will be hard to penetrate, runners or receivers.

Orcs and Chaos don't care about that - so you'll really struggle to beat them.

IMO team develop for flair teams is really about developing a team that can effectively stop bashy team's offence. Diving Tackle & Shadowing do have a place in that strategy - but as 3rd or 4th skills after you've got the bread a butter skills that help all round.

[da Squighunter]

Totally true in regards to the bashy teams Ian! It just turns out that I generally play in a league that is enamored with the passing game. Even Ork teams attempt the odd pass here and there.

Plus, although not always true, most bashy teams are generally slow (or at the very least slower). This being said it will take them a series of three to five turns to score on you as they set up their "cages/sideline perimeters". A few leaping/surehanded linemen with a tough blitzer (with blodge/leap/surehands) should allow you to break into the ballcarrier and score quickly using your superior speed, i.e. the two offensive catchers you will have downfield. My point--bashy teams need more turns to score--so there are more chances for them to make the odd mistake, or for you to make the heroic play, for the pro elf team to capitalize on because of their faster reaction time and ability to move the ball.

I have seen Dwarf and Ork teams plow through the field over the course of 5 turns only to have a quick team exploit a mistake and successfully move the ball the same distance the other way in one turn! In fact, I'm sure we've all seen that!

Of course, all of this is said with the idea that your guys don't get smashed to the grass like you said! I like the advice I read somewhere else here: don't put your guys directly in front of a cage you're trying to break up. Sounds like good advice to me!

[pfooti]

Don't forget that the receiver can also blitz the (now adjacent) shadowing catcher. If he pushes the catcher back, he can just run away without worrying about shadowing. That scenario also requires sidestep.

Of course, while we're talking about how we need block and sidestep for this set-up, let us not forget the 2 blitzers that come standard. 7348, block, sidestep. They're fast enough to make shadowing an option (especially since the shadower wins on ties).

In the games I've played with my Elf team, I've been really, really strong on defense. Leapers get in and mess up the cage, and that dodge, block, sidestep, strip ball blitzer keeps getting up and hitting the ballcarrier and knocking the ball loose. The speed and NoS means you can really convert marginal turnovers into scores quickly.

The games I've lost were mostly attrition games. I was down to 6 guys at the half sort of thing.

Offensively, the team has few equals. I managed an endzone-to-endzone score. In a blizzard. Run, handoff, run, pass, run. The catchers, with NoS, make decent throwers too.

But the Elf team that does really well has a good D. There are a lot of good posts so far on that. I'll add:

Tackle on the blitzers as a second skill (dodge first!). Most teams have a dodger or two. A little tackle is a good thing, and your AV8 players are the ones that can afford to lay down TZs and put on the blitzes.

Side Step, Shadowing, Diving Tackle are all really powerful against the agile teams, but they don't do very much against bashers. Because of that, I tend toward block/dodge as my first two skills. Leap on the catchers is the third. So each catcher would be block/dodge/leap unless they get a special. The mobility of four MA8 leapers is insane. Of course, the 3+ leap roll is a bummer, but the payoff is great.

[Underdog]

Against Cages I would try to use the 'stickly' pesky blizers to hold up the back of the cage and a wall of Linemen one sqaure infront of it. This should force the cage to fragment or stop. If the cage fragments then I will try and leap in with a cagepoping cathcer type (dodge, leap, block, stripball Progression) and pop the ball free when the time is right.

Second piont.
As Squighunter pionted out even two pass blockers can Mark a whole lot of recievers. 98 squares infact! sounds amazing but the diagram below should show how. The 'x's represent the pass blockers and the 'O's are the squares they can reach.

OOOOOOO
OOOOOOO
OOOOOOO
OOOXOOO
OOOOOOO
OOOOOOO
OOOOOOO
OOOOOOO
OOOOOOO
OOOOOOO
OOOXOOO
OOOOOOO
OOOOOOO
OOOOOOO

That covers the whole width of the pitch minus one square.

Obviosly In real life they will be screened/blitzed etc but it is another problem to be delt with. And even if you dont get to use your passblock simply having such an effeclive defender on the pitch will cause your opponat to not make the pass of to pass to a less skilled reciever who is out of range.

Having said all of this I do completle agree with Ian. A combination of dodge, block or sidestep is more important in that they are more comonly useful and it will make the passblock tacklic more likely to be succesful.

My latest team progression ideas would be to have two 'sticky' Blitzers who just get in the way and pin down players with skills like Dodge and diving tackle.

Two D-Back catchers (dodge, passblock) and two Cage popper catchers (dodge, leap, Block).

Also Id just like to say I am talking completely hypatheticly. I dont have an awful lot of experience playing with this sort of team.

Ian would you ever choose Shadow for any of your players and if so when?

[Underdog]

The more I think about this the more I think developing Scoring cathcers and defensive catchers is a very bad Idea. If you were to do that your scoring catchers would get many SPP's and develop very quickly into unnecicarily good scores while your defensive Backs would hardly get any SPP's.

Rather than that I suggest you have two Catchers specialising is stoping running/cage plays and two specialising in stopping passing plays. That way which ever team you have on defense the other two can roam upfield for the TD (and SPP's) should your defense team be successful. When you play a different team with differnt tacklics your cathcer team would swap. Blitzers would always be pests that can be used to pin playes down by Blodge sidestepping so that thye cannot be blocked Blized out of the way and Diving tackle so that opponats cannot easily move away from them.

[da Squighunter]

Excellent diagram of the field space covered by just two Pass Blockers Underdog! And the swapping catcher-pairs make complete sense to me "hypothetically". I will put these ideas to the test in my next league here in Miami. I will post results as soon as I have them! If anyone has any other sage advice based on the concept of building a defensive minded Elf team, please post up!