Wild Animal Rules - Suggested Change

[Marcus]

Yeah, my idea kind of implied the existence of a packmaster but kept the rule simple.

Rule first, flavour later. Matching the rules to fit the flavour is putting the cart before the horse IMO.

Marcus

[Deathwing]

A little convoluted perhaps. Just don't like the idea of adding layers of rules.
How about simply allowing assists and jacking the price to compensate?

[Dangerous Dave]

Sorry,

I am very puzzled...

Leave 1 player from your team next to the Wild Animal and in order to get a 2 dice defenders choice block, you need 3 ST 4 guys or 4 ST 3 guys 1 of whom must have Guard and be in the right place. OK 2 ST 5 players do it (not many teams have that... and Mummies are pretty tough to manoeuvre there anyway) and 1 ST 5 will give a one dice block. If you really want to protect him past that, then 2 players will stop all but the most Guard heavy teams.

Are there other negative traits that benefit from having a player next to the Big Guy - yes - Really Stupid.

So what is the problem with the current rules for Wild Animal? Sure we can change it but I have to say a player yelling at the Wild Animal to stop him hitting isn't going to work.


For those who have had lots of turnovers in one game from a Wild Animal, perhaps you could explain how... my guess it was either bad play (blitzing him into a pack and saying "Oh dear he's surrounded!" or similar) or bad luck (eg a 1 in 9 block / skull result). I'm not sure that the rules should be changed for either of these reasons.


Dave

[DoubleSkulls]

Bonehead and Really Stupid don't cause turnovers and IIRC they don't even lose you the action (if you are making a blitz).

Even on a 1/9 chance of turnover (before you get block) that's 2 TO's per game before you can even de-stun your own players.

Ian

[Acerak]

FWIW, Bonehead and Really Stupid will cost you the action for the turn.

-Chet

[Dangerous Dave]

Even on a 1/9 chance of turnover (before you get block) that's 2 TO's per game before you can even de-stun your own players.

Doh!

OK so for every turn you leave your Rat Ogre available to have someone put a TZ on him? For this to happen you need to put him on the Line for every Kick Off and leave him within easy reach thereafter. In addition, if you do fail he's on the floor so you can leave him there if necessary.

Yeah right!.... if you play it properly, at most you should have 4 or 5 times per game where your opponent voluntarily puts a player on your Rat Ogre. That gives at worst 1 auto t/o per game. You can get far worse on the Kick Off table.

My suggestion for a Rat Ogre is.....

Wait to get one until you have managed to roll a double for a skill roll, pick Leader... problem solved. Now if your opponent puts a luckless lino in your way - be happy and go for the casualty. I've also found that leaving the Rat Ogre 3 squares from the side line tends to keep infiltrators away too.

So Bonehead and Really Stupid don't cause t/os! Wow! Losing a TZ can seriously change your defence / attack. Ok it may not be as terminal as a t/o but it can be pretty bad. Sure an Ogre could stand there and do nothing... but then why play him!


Come on guys.. if Wild Animal is SO bad.... give us all the gory details of what happened. Until you can provide good examples of why its so bad... I will not be convinced and nor should anyone else.


Dave

[Pantera]

Sorry,
For those who have had lots of turnovers in one game from a Wild Animal, perhaps you could explain how... my guess it was either bad play (blitzing him into a pack and saying "Oh dear he's surrounded!" or similar) or bad luck (eg a 1 in 9 block / skull result). I'm not sure that the rules should be changed for either of these reasons.
Dave

1. The WA skill forces a coach to play the WA in a way that is opposite what Big Guys should be for.

2. The WA mostly is bad for Skaven, as they bought the RO for more power in their weak team. The other WA, Minotaur, is available only to teams who have another Big Guy available to them to. Skaven are stuck with a WA Big Guy or none at all.

3. The WA skill is formed so the opposing coach is encouraged to use it against the other team.

4. You say that there is a 1/9 chance without block on the RO, but that assumes a lower STR on the player that moves up to him. How about a Mummie, or a Ogre? Make that a 1/3 chance of a turnover.

Also, you seem to think that all thats needed to fix the WA is good coaching, which I find a bit irritating, as it implies that I'm a bad coach as I cannot use the WA.

One example would be that when I had the RO deep on my side, and he broke through on one side with a blitzer. I here have two choices:

A) I try to stop the breakthrough using the former powerplayer of the Skaven team, the Rat Ogre. Thereby I risk a 1/9 chance of a turnover next turn or even worse, as he has his Ogre close with a chance of breaking free and moving up to the RO not standing up the Blitzer that I presumably manage to down, a 1/3 chance.

B) Run away with the RO.

Either choice sucks in my opinion.

[Acerak]

In addition, if you do fail he's on the floor so you can leave him there if necessary.

Another reason this skill could use a review.

-Chet

[Trambi]

Yes and if he goes down due to a block there is turnover.
Seems good cos automatic reaction of the WA player is against the incontrollable behavior. It must be random ...

[Dangerous Dave]

OK - I have some comments back... but only one example of why WA is bad....

1. The WA skill forces a coach to play the WA in a way that is opposite what Big Guys should be for.

? Not sure what that is.... surely he's supposed to help the team win the game.....

2. The WA mostly is bad for Skaven, as they bought the RO for more power in their weak team. The other WA, Minotaur, is available only to teams who have another Big Guy available to them to. Skaven are stuck with a WA Big Guy or none at all.

If the Rat Ogre is so bad - don't pick him. Amazons don't have a Big Guy, and since when did a Big Guy under the current rules (I am not including a freebooted Morg here) win the match? Skaven have enough assets without needing a Big Guy.

3. The WA skill is formed so the opposing coach is encouraged to use it against the other team.

True - but if you do that and the Rat Ogre makes it through then your defence is much weaker for trying the set up on the Rat Ogre.... (I should add that the Skaven coach always has the option of making it difficult to be set up in the first place).

4. You say that there is a 1/9 chance without block on the RO, but that assumes a lower STR on the player that moves up to him. How about a Mummie, or a Ogre? Make that a 1/3 chance of a turnover.

Sure a ST 5 guy will be a third chance of a t/o.... but come on - if you leave an easy route for either of these players to move next to your Rat Ogre, I say that's bad play.

One example would be that when I had the RO deep on my side, and he broke through on one side with a blitzer. I here have two choices:

A) I try to stop the breakthrough using the former powerplayer of the Skaven team, the Rat Ogre. Thereby I risk a 1/9 chance of a turnover next turn or even worse, as he has his Ogre close with a chance of breaking free and moving up to the RO not standing up the Blitzer that I presumably manage to down, a 1/3 chance.

B) Run away with the RO.

Either choice sucks in my opinion.

Hmm.... if a blitzer runs through on his own then blitz him.... if he has cover. then you can get lots of your nimble skaven around to cover. Personally I would happily blitz the blitzer - especially if he had the ball.... and am I concerned about leaving the blitzer in my TZ? Well it depends... if he has the ball and i get pushes... well of course I'm happy. If he hasn't got the ball then who is the threat on the drive? If its the blitzer, then I'm still happy. If its a sneaky catcher hiding behind some protection then either blitz that protection or move the Rat Ogre where his Prehensile Tail can stop some dodging.

Also, you seem to think that all thats needed to fix the WA is good coaching, which I find a bit irritating, as it implies that I'm a bad coach as I cannot use the WA.

Maybe I am a bit irritating.... but I still find it hard to see how the Wild Animal trait is so bad on its own that it costs you the game... on its own. To date I have seen a mini example which is "Do I risk a 1 in 9 t/o or run away". I have posted some suggestions as to how it could be played... but I would still like to know from Pantera, Ian or Marcus what actually happened to cause the turnovers. I am not saying the current WA rule is perfect. I just feel that to say it is too negative without justifying why is wrong.


Perhaps the easiest way to try and resolve this would be to test via a PBEM game. I'm happy to set it up using a rookie Skaven team v a rookie team of your choice.... however, normally, I would not have a rookie Rat Ogre in my starting team given the choice (nor a rookie Ogre in most other teams either!). I am sure that I can lose the game (Skaven are not my team of choice)... but I would be surprised if the Rat Ogre was the main cause!


Dave

[Dangerous Dave]

In addition, if you do fail he's on the floor so you can leave him there if necessary.

Another reason this skill could use a review.

-Chet

Chet, I don't disagree.... but this affects more than Wild Animal. If you want to change WA because of this then you need to change the rules re other players taking time out inspecting the worms. I do agree that Wild Animal doesn't lend itself to staying on the turf.. but then, unless you are going the Fanatic route (Ball and Chain) then most solutions will have an element of not being wild in them!


Dave

[Trambi]

Dave perhaps the WA rule should be less mechanical, with more random to reflect the uncontrollable way of playing of this guy.

[Marcus]

Dave:

I think there is a slight misunderstanding here. The question is less about whether or not you can play around the weaknesses of Wild Animal and more about how you have to go about it.

Yes, you can attempt to play your Ratogre in the backfield and avoid trouble. Yes you can keep him off the pitch for drives, but why do you have to do this?

You have to do this because the in-game effect of the Wild Animal rule is that it forces you to risk start-of-turn turnovers with no decision making or risk taking on your part.

The purpose of the forced block rule is presumably to take a little control out of the hands of the Wild Animal coach and make the player "Wild". The real effect of this is somewhat different and leads to a playing of the "rules" rather than the "game" which is why I think it's not the best rule. It's annoying and frustrating to have a situation where the opponent can play the "let's make the Ratogre turn over" gambit rather than actually trying to break defense and score by the normal means.

As to your specific examples on how to play Ratogres so they don't turn you over here's some examples from real play.

(1) Play the ratogre as a deep sweeper: You end up giving up the integrity of your secondary by removing a lynchpin player and putting him at the back of the field. This makes it easier for the opponent to run recievers through the line where they end up near the Ratogre. They can then choose to put 3 recievers on the Ratogre rather than fan out for a pass. If the block fails they have a whole extra turn to play with, if the block succeeds then the Frenzy followup draws the Ratogre away from the other two players who then remain unmarked.

Specific Examples: Dark Elf team did this to me in a league match. The first time I turned failed the block and could not reroll, the second time I blocked a Blodge player off, pushed him back and left the others unmarked. I lacked the players to bring defence back to help because my secondary was weakened by having to pull my strongest player back as a safety.

You also lose the ability to send a strong player downfield to put pressure on the thrower and are forced to deploy your strength in your own backfield. This is a backpedaling play that is ill suited to Skaven defence and costs you initiative.

Specific Examples: Attempting to use the RO to break the defensive LoS and force GRs downfield to threaten the ball carrier, I ended up having my GRs ignored and surrounded, followed by my RO. The RO failed his block, no reroll, and the DE coach had a whole extra turn to pound on my GRs and get away.

(2) Keep players near the Ratogre to defend him: This does not prevent players from blitzing off the Ratogre's buddy and placing a Guarding player adjacent to force the low percentage block. It also draws players away from the actual focus of the drive, thereby costing you field position. This goes back to my argument above - it becomes a race to see how soon you can get the Ratogre to screw up rather than how you can get the ball down the pitch.

Specific Examples: Keeping the RO as the inside secondary with close protection I had my protection blitzed off by Bull Centaurs and then marked by guarding CD blockers. Yet another failed half-die block

(3) Keep him off the pitch: What's the point of having him available to the team then?

No examples needed.

Now, you could give me examples as to how I could have avoided these but it would miss the fundamental point that in order to avoid the chance of turning over at the start of my turn I have to fundamentally alter the structure and style of a Skaven team for the worse. I have no way to tactically compensate for my WAs inconsistencies in my own turn. I have no option to decline to use him other than to leave him off the pitch. The entire risk for my turnover is taken by the opposing coach who needs do nothing more than stand next to my RO and wait. This, in my opinion, is a poor game mechanic.

I'm happy to see WAs have all kinds of negatives imposed on them. I just want to be able to coach around them while still playing a game that resembles bloodbowl.

Marcus

[Thadrin]

Fanatic Movement rules!
(minus the stuff about heart attacks)

[Bengo]

The way I see it Skaven don't like the WE because it hinders you ability to have any power on the pitch. Would you field a oger if it only cost 110k instead of 120k and came with the Wild Animal trait. Most likely not. Now imagin that that is your only choice of a big guy. That is the bad feeling Skaven have.