Wild Animal Rules - Suggested Change

[Trambi]

I think that the problem with WA is that very easy to counter with low risk. Moreover the counter is a very profitable low risk strategy, which kill the interrest of having a rat ogre.
WA is not made to do that. WA is to give an negative aspect to Rat Ogre and Minotaure. The old school 1 on D6 at the beginning of turn (or of WA player) could a good solution to resolve this problem, I think.

[Bevan]

None of the Skaven teams in our league use Rat Ogres any more, they are just a liability to the team.

The last league in which we had a team using them I was coaching Amazons and just placed a 50k linewoman next to the 130k Rat Ogre. This caused 2-3 immediate turnovers per game, in other cases she was just pushed back to do the same next time, in other cases she was knocked over but just stood up again. In a few cases she was hurt and I had to send another linewoman over. This allowed a cheap player to keep an expensive player fully occupied for the drive.

In all cases the Rat Ogre never had any direct effect on the play of the game because the ball was somewhere else. The immediate turnovers were just a bonus.

The other Big Guys are of marginal value so some teams use them and some don't, but Wild Animal may be a bit too severe.

[Trambi]

For me Big guys must be a kind of risky player - a kind of fun strategic challenge - nor a must have player nor a handicap for the team

[neoliminal]

We've been testing a new Wild Animal, and it seems to be working pretty well:

Wild Animal

The player has a nasty tendency to get a bit carried away during a match. Because of this you must roll a D6 after declaring an action for the player, but before taking the action. If there’s one or more players from the same team standing adjacent to the Wild Animal player’s square, and who aren’t also a Wild Animal, then add +2 to the dice roll. On a 1-3 the player "Goes Wild". A player that Goes Wild no longer distinguishes between friend, foe or coach. Roll on the scatter templet for each point of MA the player has and move the Wild Animal one space using all the normal rules for movement (dodge rolls, etc). If the space is occupied by a standing player, blitz him (even if he's on your team!). If the space is occupied by a prone player, foul him (even if he's on your team!). Note that because the player has Gone Wild , no one will assist in his blocks or fouls. Should the player move off the pitch, he is immediately led to the reserves box unharmed (the fans know better than to mess with a Wild Animal!).

So far it's been pretty good.

[Thadrin]

Looks familiar (checks page two of this thread). Yep...
I think a berserk WA should be able to ignore tackle zones though. Would YOU try and trip up a 9 foot tall, 2 ton, foaming-at-the-mouth Rat?

Do you still have the "must go first" rule with that or is that gone?
I'd certainly take that over the current version...I just got me one of those funky new WFB Rat Ogres for my Skaven team.

[Ryk]

I just feel that to say it is too negative without justifying why is wrong.

Dave,

I think the point that's trying to be made is not that WA is too negative, but that it's negative in ways which are bad for the game.

For an opposing coach, the risk/reward ratio of playing for a WA turnover is unbalanced. Simply by moving players next to the WA, I obtain the chance of consecutive turns. The more I play for it, the greater that chance is.

For each of the other negative traits, the opposing coach takes tactical advantage of them as and where their negatives arise. For WA, the opposing coach plays strategically to force the negative to arise.

The WA playing coach is presented, following his opponent's turn, with a situation in which he only makes dice rolls, not decisions.

Tactical suggestions for coping with the negative aspects of WA are essentially "don't play him". Don't stand him back up, leave him on the bench, play him deep in the backfield are all variations of "don't play him".

Strategic suggestions for coping with the negative aspects of WA are usually "get block", "get pro", "get leader for someone else". Just about any player in Bloodbowl shines with two skills. The WA manages to be acceptable with block pro.

That is bad.

Ryk

[Dangerous Dave]

OK....

I can see the point you are making (play the player not the ball). I am open minded as to whether its good or bad - at least it is a tactic that you can employ / stop - rather than a random event which you cannot plan for.

My main gripe on this thread is that a lot of the proposals for changing it are:-


Not negative enough; and
Not Wild.


So I will be happy with a change that is the most negative of the traits and is Wild.


The "Goes Wild" suggestion is certainly wild. However, IMO the suggestion is much more negative than the current Wild Animal rule. I assume that there is no "Go first" part of the rule since if there is, my guess is that there will be many more turnovers than there are now - you need to keep a player next to him for a 1 in 6. If you play the Rat Ogre, then there is a 1 in 6 chance of the Rat Ogre going Wild - then he has to dodge 6 in 8 times or hit his own player 1 in 8. If he makes the first dodge, there is a good chance of needing to dodge more / hit his own players at some part of the move. This ultimately means the Rat Ogre is likely to stay away from the majority of his own team..... meaning he doesn't do much in the match and move last (or at least late) in the team's turn.... and one unfortunate player who is trying to tame him (and basically does little else all game) will get hit at some stage!

Sure the Goes Wild suggestion is fun.... but to me it seems too negative (here I am assuming that the normal turnover rules apply to the wild Rat and his team mates). If the need to dodge is removed (as Thadrin has suggested), then at least there is a chance that he won't turnover when Wild. However, I can see that this could lead to a jammy TD if he's the ball carrier! One thing though, whilst mere mortals are likely to let him go and be thankful he "dodged" away, I'm sure any Big Guys would still have a pop at him - but that would be adding more complexity.

Since Neo is testing this rule, I'd be interested as to why the rule is working well. I have to say that my instinct says I would never have a Rat Ogre on my team (using the "Goes Wild" rule) - the cost benefit just doesn't seem to add up.

But then, what is the solution? I'll have a think......


Dave

[McDeth]

I'd settle for not having to move first in the turn

[Thadrin]

Sure the Goes Wild suggestion is fun.... but to me it seems too negative (here I am assuming that the normal turnover rules apply to the wild Rat and his team mates). If the need to dodge is removed (as Thadrin has suggested), then at least there is a chance that he won't turnover when Wild. However, I can see that this could lead to a jammy TD if he's the ball carrier! One thing though, whilst mere mortals are likely to let him go and be thankful he "dodged" away, I'm sure any Big Guys would still have a pop at him - but that would be adding more complexity.

There's an equal chance that the Rat Ogre ball carrier will runb in completely the wrong direction though. There's also the chnce that he'll completely expose the ball to attack...Ilove the whole idea of the complete randomness of it all...or you could always give a "gone wild" player Break Tackle for the duration.

[Marcus]

Neo:

Love your rule, I think it's spot on. Keeps the Wild aspect and the risk of extreme screwup but allows you to tactically counter the possibilities of him going mental.

A couple of comments/questions:

I take it you do not have to move him first - just roll berko when you do move him?

Does it use your team's blitz? I would assume not as your blitz could already be used by the time you move the WA.

Will the Wild player make multiple blocks/fouls for every player he hits?

I also like Thad's suggestion that you ignore tacklezones when moving him.

Marcus

[Furelli]

Yeah, 1/ if he blocks an opponent does it use the teams blitz?
2/ Does he keep moving after the block or foul?
3/ Does he use the teams foul if he fouls?

I think question 2 is the most important.

Furelli.

[Dangerous Dave]

OK how about this for Wild Animal - its a kind of hybrid between what's been suggested to date:-

At the start of the turn, if there is a Wild Animal on the team, then a "Wild" roll is made. On a roll of 1 (d6) the Wild Animal has gone wild and will attack the nearest player - this could be his own team mate. If several players are the same number of squares away, randomly select the unfortunate victim. A failed Wild roll means the Wild Animal must move first. If the Wild Animal moves before blocking (or fouling), then that uses up your blitz or foul move for that turn (irrespective of whether you blitzed or fouled your own team mate or not!). If the Wild Animal roll is 2+, then the Wild Animal is calm enough to follow the Coach's insructions and can move as a normal player at any point during the team's turn. While Wild, the Wild Animal cannot give nor receive assists (he stays Wild until the Wild roll is 2+) - however, when not Wild he is like a normal player.

Alternative 1. Similar to Really Stupid, you could make the "Wild" roll a 1-3 with a +2 for someone next to him. This creates a huge dilemma for the coach since if he does leave a player next to him and the Wild Animal fails the Wild roll - he is likely to attack that player. In addition, when he is Wild (assuming he didn't cause a turnover), you can move a player next to him hoping to calm the animal down..... will he be the next victim?



Thoughts?




Dave

[Acerak]

Dave - I'd rather not roll for a player unless I'm taking an action for him. Catch rolls excluded, of course

I like John's suggestion on the surface. It's rather close to some half-baked idea I had that involved a roll modeled after Really Stupid.

Questions raised by Marcus:

I take it you do not have to move him first - just roll berko when you do move him?

Does it use your team's blitz? I would assume not as your blitz could already be used by the time you move the WA.

Will the Wild player make multiple blocks/fouls for every player he hits?

I also like Thad's suggestion that you ignore tacklezones when moving him.

I suggest that you must move him first. The player should be partially out of control most of the time. Without this restriction, the Skaven coach can easily move a player next to the Rat Ogre every turn, negating a large part of the penalty. Accordingly, I'd consider counting a failed WA roll as the team's blitz. But it might be negative enough already.

I don't think the WA needs to make multiple blocks - that's why he has Frenzy. Let him attack one player (friend or foe), take his Frenzied block, and work it out normally.

And I'd also let him ignore tackle zones when moving.

Questions:

How do you figure out opposing assists if the WA attacks a team-mate while standing next to opposing players?

How does this stop the "play the Rat Ogre" strategy? (If the ROgre doesn't have to move first, the question is answered.)

How good are the Rat Ogres in your league, John? (If the ROgre doesn't have to move first, this question needs answering.)

Cheers.

-Chet

[Marcus]

I think that Neo's version would work well provided that you don't have to move the WA first in the turn. Having to move him first puts us back in to "play the player" land.

Besides which it fits in with existing negative traits. They all exist as a sword of damocles hanging over the coach that you can plan for or ignore and cross your fingers.

Yes, the WA coach can ameliorate the effect of WA by having a handler next to the WA before he starts his turn but I don't think this is a bad thing.

Firstly - it markes the handler out as a target should the WA go berko.

Secondly - it puts some restriction on your options as a coach, given you have to find a spare player to help "free up" the WA.

I think it's unnecessary to have the Berzerk action use up the team blitz - I think you just have him go nuts 'til he hits something, then have him stop there - Given it's random it's hardly an organised "blitz".

As for assists on friendly players, I would say they simply don't apply. You could argue it 100 ways but at the end of the day this doesn't introduce any further exceptions.

Marcus

[Acerak]

Marcus - I think you could still avoid "play the player" problems if the WA moved first. Regardless, they'd be lessened. 50% of the time, it wouldn't do anything. As for clearing the handler - keep two handlers around. Or give one of them Side Step or Stand Firm. Voila! You're always good to go.

As for the Blitz, I have a simple suggestion:

1. If the WA hits someone without moving a single square, it's a Block action.
2. If the WA moves a square before hitting someone, it's a Blitz.
3. If the WA fouls a player, it's a Foul.

This solution still suffers from an older problem, however. If the Wild Animal attacks a team-mate, who chooses the result? If the WA's coach chooses, he can frequently avoid taking knockdowns to keep his turn going, but it's unreasonable. If the other coach chooses, he'll just pick a skull if possible, which is also poor.

-Chet