Wild Animal Rules - Suggested Change

[Acerak]

Perhaps what's needed is a solution that avoids any on-the-field problems. Something like this...

"Roll a D6 before setting up your team. On a roll of 1, the player is too wild and must remain in the dugout. On a roll of 2 or more, the player is reasonably controlled and may be set on the pitch, but he must take his action before any other team-mate during his team's turn."

Ok. What did that do? For starters, the player is MIA around 1/6 of the time, like a Bonehead. Second, the "must move first" bit remains, but the "forced block" goes away.

Or how about this?

"Roll a D6 before setting up your team, but after you have made any KO rolls. On a roll of 1, the Wild Animal has gone berzerk in the dugout! Pick a random player on your team and make an injury roll for him using the normal rules. On a roll of stunned, place the player in the Reserves box."

At that point, add the "must move first" clause if you want, but remove the forced block.

-Chet

[Furelli]

Chet, you really like this "Must Go First" thing for wild animals. I think that a Wild Animal shouldn't even be that predictable. Maybe roll a d6 and this is the position that the player must be played. ie roll a 1 and he goes first, roll a 4 and he is the fourth player you move.

Furelli.

[Marcus]

As for clearing the handler - keep two handlers around. Or give one of them Side Step or Stand Firm. Voila! You're always good to go.

I don't see how that changes the situation at all. It's still a strategic and not a tactical concern and you can still play the animal.

Neo's idea, factoring in the fact you don't have to move the player first, provides the right amount of random wildness, requires the coach to make some tactical decisions onfield as to how to best manage the risk. It also fits nicely into the established paradigm, which is no bad thing in my opinion.

For what it's worth I'll be pushing that rule for playtest in our league.

Marcus

[Acerak]

I'm still not clear how (or if) John's rules handle several elements:

1. Assists. How do you work out assists if he attacks his own team-mate?

2. Dodge rolls. Who, exactly, is tackling this player? Opponents? What about team-mates? And how silly is it if the Wild Animal goes berzerk and someone tackles him on the spot?

3. Blocking dice choice. Suppose the Wild Animal goes berzerk and blocks a team-mate. Who chooses? This is an old issue for this type of solution. I haven't seen a good suggestion yet.

4. Multiple blitzes. I run all my Skaven away from the WA and maybe I'll end up with a risk-free move later. Hey, I may even get a free shot at a player I couldn't normally hit! That's a plus, not a negative. This was a problem with early versions of WA as well.

5. Multiple fouls. If he isn't forced to move first, he can throw a second foul. Ugh.

I think those questions need immediate answering. It's not at all clear from the description. I think the D6 roll is fine, and adding +2 for having an adjacent team-mate is also cool. It's the effects that are bothersome.

-Chet

[Devil's Advocate]

Ok, I'll try to answer for John, seeing as it is my Minotaur that is using these rules:

1. Assists. How do you work out assists if he attacks his own team-mate?

No assists are given for either side for this block, everyone invovled are blindsided by the attack.

2. Dodge rolls. Who, exactly, is tackling this player? Opponents? What about team-mates? And how silly is it if the Wild Animal goes berzerk and someone tackles him on the spot?

No dodge rolls either, whos gunna try and stop him?

3. Blocking dice choice. Suppose the Wild Animal goes berzerk and blocks a team-mate. Who chooses? This is an old issue for this type of solution. I haven't seen a good suggestion yet.

I've been playing the the opposing coach picks the result. I don't know why this really matters, though, as either a skull or a pow will result in the team's turn ending.

4. Multiple blitzes. I run all my Skaven away from the WA and maybe I'll end up with a risk-free move later. Hey, I may even get a free shot at a player I couldn't normally hit! That's a plus, not a negative. This was a problem with early versions of WA as well.

Once the Wild Animal hits something (be it a Block, Blitz or Foul) its turn is over, reguardless of any remaining MA.

5. Multiple fouls. If he isn't forced to move first, he can throw a second foul.

The Wild Animal is not forced to move first. If you haven't Blitzed/Fouled yet this turn, this counts as your only one. If you have, it still does it (bonus!). Again, it cannot make multiple blocks/fouls because as soon as it's made one, it is finished.

Hope this clears up any confusion!

[Furelli]

So now the wild animal is probably going to move last as there is a chance of a bonus foul or blitz - not too sure about this.

Furelli.

[Dangerous Dave]

Chet suggested:-

"Roll a D6 before setting up your team. On a roll of 1, the player is too wild and must remain in the dugout. On a roll of 2 or more, the player is reasonably controlled and may be set on the pitch, but he must take his action before any other team-mate during his team's turn."

OK fine... but this seems to be a very controlled amount of wildness. I mean he is much more likely (or at least as likely) to go wild on the field where he is allowed to try and beat the opposition to pulp. Sure the must move first is an additional negative but to me it doesn't suggest Wildness at all with the must block removed.


Chet suggested again:-

"Roll a D6 before setting up your team, but after you have made any KO rolls. On a roll of 1, the Wild Animal has gone berzerk in the dugout! Pick a random player on your team and make an injury roll for him using the normal rules. On a roll of stunned, place the player in the Reserves box."

OK that is wild.. but again not on the pitch. Also, I would doubt that anyone would want a Wild Animal on their team. I mean assuming a 2-1 win there should be 4 or 5 kick offs (depends whether you score at the end of a half or not) in the game. This means that you should make 5 injury rolls every 6 games. So that's roughly 1 casualty every 6 games (excluding Mighty Blow) plus a KO. Since this could be your Star Gutter or Storm Vermin, that's big risk to take.


On Neo's suggestion, Furelli said:-

So now the wild animal is probably going to move last as there is a chance of a bonus foul or blitz - not too sure about this.

And that is absolutely right - of course the Wild Animal will move towards the end of a turn. At least take your blitz first, move your important players, take a few blocks / a foul and then move the Wild Animal. Aside from the negative that he may attack your own players, since you had a chance to move them away, there must be decent odds that he will attack an opposing player. In addition, since he doesn't have to dodge, you can get him out of some holes that would be a problem for other players. If the ruling is that you can only have one blitz... then if you feel that the Wild Animal may blitz your own player... take a normal blitz first and your home free.


Hmmmmm not sure that this is the solution either.


Earlier in the thread I suggested:-

At the start of the turn, if there is a Wild Animal on the team, then a "Wild" roll is made. On a roll of 1 (d6) the Wild Animal has gone wild and will attack the nearest player - this could be his own team mate. If several players are the same number of squares away, randomly select the unfortunate victim. A failed Wild roll means the Wild Animal must move first. If the Wild Animal moves before blocking (or fouling), then that uses up your blitz or foul move for that turn (irrespective of whether you blitzed or fouled your own team mate or not!). If the Wild Animal roll is 2+, then the Wild Animal is calm enough to follow the Coach's insructions and can move as a normal player at any point during the team's turn. While Wild, the Wild Animal cannot give nor receive assists (he stays Wild until the Wild roll is 2+) - however, when not Wild he is like a normal player.

Alternative 1. Similar to Really Stupid, you could make the "Wild" roll a 1-3 with a +2 for someone next to him. This creates a huge dilemma for the coach since if he does leave a player next to him and the Wild Animal fails the Wild roll - he is likely to attack that player. In addition, when he is Wild (assuming he didn't cause a turnover), you can move a player next to him hoping to calm the animal down..... will he be the next victim?

Chet didn't like it since it:-

I'd rather not roll for a player unless I'm taking an action for him. Catch rolls excluded, of course

Sure, I can see that but, if you want to make a Wild Animal wild and also playable and not available for setting up for a 2 dice defender's choice block then I haven't seen any suggestions yet that achieve all of those aims better than the suggestion I made. IMO rolling one d6 at the start of a turn is a small (and very simple) price to pay for solving the problems raised with the current skill and the other ideas made to date.


So leave aside the d6 roll at the top of the turn and does this suggestion achieve the aims? I think it does.... and I can feel a Poll coming!



Dave

[Acerak]

DA - That's a strange Minotaur you have there. He isn't using the rule John described. As for choosing dice, it will obvious as soon as you roll a push/skull against a team-mate. If I'm your opponent, I pick the skull. Not good.

Dave - There's no need to attach the negative to the pitch. Vampires had a characteristic that made them miss playing time. Treemen have this characteristic. It's not new. If you want something a little "wilder," try this:

Roll a D6 before each drive. On a roll of 1, the wild animal can't be coaxed onto the pitch. On a roll of 2 or more, he can be led out to play. However, his general wildness means that he must take his action before any other player on his team, and he may not receive assists when he blocks or fouls.

That's it. (Remember, he has Frenzy and can't use TRRs. He'll be plenty wild on blocks.) This leaves the following negative angles:

* Must move first.
* Can't receive assists.

It removes the following penalty:

* Can be set up for a cheesy turnover due to a forced block.

And it adds the following negative:

* Misses time.

As for your modified suggestion, Dave, you really need to complete the math. Assuming 4 or 5 drives per game, the "Dugout Fight" version would cause 3 INJ rolls every 4 games. You were in the ballpark on this one.

But look at what you've proposed. If you forced the WA to stand next to a team-mate every turn then you're looking at 3 turns a game when the player goes wild and might hit a team-mate instead of an opponent. Is this enough? I doubt it. It looks a lot safer than the current version, which is ironic given that you're the biggest supporter of the current version!

Anyway, carry that out. Assume you have 1-2 team-mates near the WA every turn. One player will get attacked every two games, on average. This won't cause turnovers. It won't really get the WA in trouble. So where's the disadvantage? This is probably the tamest version I've seen it. In addition, it's a little lengthy - it counts as a blitz if he fails and has to run, but it doesn't if he blocks, etc. Frankly, I'm baffled by your support of it.

-Chet

[Dangerous Dave]

Chet,

I too am puzzled!

First of all - I am not a Big supporter of the current version. I just think that any proposal that allows the Rat Ogre to move first but do nothing is not negative enough. So that is why I have supported the current version (above something like that). Basically IMO this will mean the Rat Ogre will move normally or block. If he is surrounded or has an Ogre next to him - he will not go and the defenders will have a number of players or their Big Guy away from the action - this is not very negative in my view.

OK you have now suggested 1 in 6 drives missed and must go first and not block. OK the first is negative but is just a toned down version of OFAB and so is pretty uninteresting. The second part is a minor irritation. I don't buy that Frenzy makes them Wild - there are lots of other players with Frenzy - yeah sure they get wound up but a Wild Animal should be more Wild than that.


You then commented on my suggestion:-

But look at what you've proposed. If you forced the WA to stand next to a team-mate every turn then you're looking at 3 turns a game when the player goes wild and might hit a team-mate instead of an opponent. Is this enough? I doubt it. It looks a lot safer than the current version

Well is it safer? If the Wild Animal hits his own team mate, then (assuming he has 2 dice) then he has a good chance of getting his team mate down (two 2 dice blocks). If he doesn't get his team mate down then he may well roll skull / block and knock himself down (and maybe his team mate too). If either situation occurs - that is a turnover and, since he has to move first when he is wild, then its a turnover straight away. So I don't think that this is safer. All it does is remove the play the player from the equation - but it leaves scope for quick turnovers which could be mitigated by either coach's tactical postioning of their players. In addition, if the Wild Animal blitzes an opponent, sure that's not too bad.... but then the team has lost its blitz for the turn. That can be critical too.

Still baffled?


Dave

[neoliminal]

The Wild Animal we are using had several design features:

1. We decided it should be on par or slightly worse than Really Stupid.

To that end we made the roll similar to Really Stupid. Since it was a wild animal, the results couldn't be the same as really stupid. Having the player attack the "nearest" player cause all sorts of headaches when trying to decide who was "closer".

We decided that the Wild Animal needed to act randomly. From that point on it was just a matter of going over what might happen. What if he hits his own player, what if he hits a prone player, what if he goes out of bounds??

This characteristic should be about as painful as Really Stupid. Sometimes it will cause a turnover, but sometimes you'll knock an opponent down. Because you can't tell when it going to happen, and because the movement is random, you can't just stick him in the opponents backfield and expect him to smack people down.

He's unreliable, you can't really cage with him, and you don't trust him enough to do really important things. Oh, and you keep him away from the sidelines.

All in all, the game effects have been great.

[Marcus]

Who chooses the dice? - The opponent. It's a negative trait so let them make it as bad for you as they feel like.

How are tackles arranged? - You can't tackle a "gone wild" player. Too bloody wild.

How do you handle multiple fouls? - Since there is theoretically a similar chance they'll hit or foul your own boys as much as they opponent, let them get away with the foul. They might even get caught and sent off.

How are assists handled? - No offensive or defensive assists apply. Too bloody wild.

Obviously the disadvantage here is that you can rely on them about as much as you can a really stupid player. Added to the advantage of maybe getting a free foul is the larger penalty of maybe getting a free block against your own player. Seems to balance nicely to me.

Alternative

Since this is obviously a bit of a hot potato you could just drop Wild Animal entirely. Just call him Really Stupid, only instead of him standing around scratching his arse in confusion he's actually beating his chest, bellowing and gnawing on the leg of a previous victim.

Given I've seen Wild Animal change with just about every rules release in memory, it's probably for the best just to put the goddamn thing to bed.

Marcus

[Acerak]

Marcus - I see exactly where you're coming from. But we're still back in 4E territory. You should never get a benefit from a failed roll like this. I wasn't alone in saying so at the time. I know I'm not alone now.

-Chet

[Deathwing]

Marcus - I see exactly where you're coming from. But we're still back in 4E territory. You should never get a benefit from a failed roll like this. I wasn't alone in saying so at the time. I know I'm not alone now.

-Chet

Off topic: Does the converse hold true? Must try and catch a bouncing ball?
Happened again the other night, that ridiculous situation where a TRR was used in order to try and fail a roll. (Last turn of the half, Blitzer blitzed the ball carrier, down he went on a Pow/Skull, Blitzer caught the scattered ball with other players within scoring range.) I HATE THAT!!

[neoliminal]

Marcus - I see exactly where you're coming from. But we're still back in 4E territory. You should never get a benefit from a failed roll like this. I wasn't alone in saying so at the time. I know I'm not alone now.

Back in 4E it was an advantage to have a Wild Animal, period. You got extra stuff all over. Not so with this version... trust me. Ask Paul about how he lost a game because of it. It hurts a little more than Really Stupid and that just the way it should be.

[Marcus]

Then how about 86ing WA altogether and just giving WAs Really Stupid instead?

You could even just have them run off in a random direction until they reach their MA or they run into someone if you wanted it to remain a little different.

Marcus