Starting a long-term Dark Elf team with max 8 linemen...

PsychoNiko · Post by **PsychoNiko** » Tue Jun 01, 2004 7:59 pm

I was wondering how you guys would go about creating a long-term dark elf team with a maximum of 8 linemen. I am going to play with the team in an upcomming long-term league and while I understand from reading the forums that 10 linemen with many RR and a high FF would be most effective in the long run this is not an option as I only have 8 linemen models (and don't really have time/money to paint/buy any more). I was looking at:

8 linemen
1 thrower
2 blitzer

and then either

9 FF, 1 RR and 10k

or

5 FF and 2 RR

Alternatively I could change one of the blitzers to a thrower which would give me another 10k for RRs and FF but I really think I'm better off with an additional block-skill-player on the team from the start.

Give me your thoughts.

PsychoNiko

kithor2002 · Post by **kithor2002** » Tue Jun 01, 2004 8:25 pm

I would go like this

8 Lineman
2 Blitzer
1 Thrower

2 RR and 5 FF

You definatelly need at least 2 RR for a starting team.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » Tue Jun 01, 2004 9:29 pm

i don't agree here either

to me, you need 9 FF and 1 RR, then blitzers and line. i don't know the exact cost, so you might have 10k extra, or need to reduce FF to 8. anyway, with Elf teams, given the price of the linos (and of the positionals), you need high FF, so 8/9. 1 rr is enough in the beginning if you don't dodge all the time (which you shouldn't do anyway).
your priority is to get an apoth, and then get to 3rr, then get the WE and blitzers. i think the thrower can wait, but if you feel the need for him, get it.

Fronko · Post by **Fronko** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 7:39 am

From my limited experience with darkies (which is zero, but general BB experience helps out there

) I'd say, one RR, max FF. After all, this is supposed to be long-term => FF is essential. And I mean E-S-S-E-N-T-I-A-L.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 9:08 am

IMO FF is more important than rerolls. You can buy rerolls later - and FF will give you the extra money to do so.

kithor2002 · Post by **kithor2002** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 12:44 pm

ianwilliams wrote:IMO FF is more important than rerolls. You can buy rerolls later - and FF will give you the extra money to do so.

But you have to pay the double prize and with 2 RR he has a bigger chance to win.
And with a win his FF will increase more often than with a Draw.
So I still would go for 2 RR.

Yavatol · Post by **Yavatol** » Wed Jun 02, 2004 3:08 pm

Rerolls will keep your players alive. With only a few you are bound to roll a 1 when you really don't want to fail your first action (like when everybody is cornered).

DangerM0use · Post by **DangerM0use** » Thu Jun 03, 2004 11:53 pm

my starting team was
1 blitzer
1 thrower
9 line elfs
2 rr
8 ff

you will need high ff. you will need at least 2 rr (for the failed 2+ dodges)
this is the only way to start a long term de team. i know - ive done it many times.
first purchase is an apoth, then more blitzers.
the des are a very rewarding team to play with, but beacuse the cost is so high, and av is only 8, you need to get the foundation right. the trick is surviving the first few games.

Vargtass · Post by **Vargtass** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 1:59 pm

I will meet the following starting roster tomorrow:

7 linemen: 490 k
4 blitzers: 400 k
2 RR: 100 k
1 FF: 10 k

The argument from the opposing coach is this:

Every 3-4 FF (approximately) gives you an additional 10 k in winnings. Therefore you may say that for long term perspective, you should maximize your FF from the beginning, it will pay its own cost by game 8 or so.

However, what if it is paramount to the long term success of the team to develop highly skilled positional players (i e the blitzers)? then these will need to purchased as early as possible. Is this then the case with DE? Possibly. The blitzers have the block skill from starts, that means they have a faster progression to the same number of skills that any linelf can muster. On the other hand, the thrower will be good enough once he is purchased, whenever he is purchased, so he will not suffer (nor will the team) from him not being on the roster from the beginning.

In the end FF is supposed to rise. It will even be a good beginners team (increasing the chances to win), but may not contribute much to the gate.

The above argument was based on the recommendations of Ian Williams on a completely different matter, namely how to keep winning with Lizardmen beyond TR 175. The advice (in short, you can look it up under the thread, but I can't get the quotes in order) was to get highly skilled saurus. The analogy here would be that higly skilled blitzers would be key to the long term success of DEs, and should thus be purchased as early as possible. Now, my opponent is not one for compromises, thats why he has decided on the 1 FF approach.

If anyone can lend arguments for or against this unorthodox "reasoning", please feel free!

Vargtass[/quote]

Vargtass · Post by **Vargtass** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 1:59 pm

I will meet the following starting roster tomorrow:

7 linemen: 490 k
4 blitzers: 400 k
2 RR: 100 k
1 FF: 10 k

The argument from the opposing coach is this:

Every 3-4 FF (approximately) gives you an additional 10 k in winnings. Therefore you may say that for long term perspective, you should maximize your FF from the beginning, it will pay its own cost by game 8 or so.

However, what if it is paramount to the long term success of the team to develop highly skilled positional players (i e the blitzers)? then these will need to purchased as early as possible. Is this then the case with DE? Possibly. The blitzers have the block skill from starts, that means they have a faster progression to the same number of skills that any linelf can muster. On the other hand, the thrower will be good enough once he is purchased, whenever he is purchased, so he will not suffer (nor will the team) from him not being on the roster from the beginning.

In the end FF is supposed to rise. It will even be a good beginners team (increasing the chances to win), but may not contribute much to the gate.

The above argument was based on the recommendations of Ian Williams on a completely different matter, namely how to keep winning with Lizardmen beyond TR 175. The advice (in short, you can look it up under the thread, but I can't get the quotes in order) was to get highly skilled saurus. The analogy here would be that higly skilled blitzers would be key to the long term success of DEs, and should thus be purchased as early as possible. Now, my opponent is not one for compromises, thats why he has decided on the 1 FF approach.

If anyone can lend arguments for or against this unorthodox "reasoning", please feel free!

Vargtass

martynq · Post by **martynq** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 2:15 pm

What figures do you actually have available? You can always use throwers (etc.) as stand-in line-elves at the start. After all, by the time you get anywhere near a complete roster some of your original line-elves will have been killed and you will have attempted to replace these with blitzers, so it shouldn't matter that you don't have a full set of figures.

Martyn

P.S. IMO you need to start with FF9 and 2 re-rolls. That leaves you with 810k to spend on players, so the standard start-up is the only possible one that makes any sense (9 line-elves and 2 throwers is pretty crazy!).

Duke Jan · Post by **Duke Jan** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 2:21 pm

Yup, I've never known a opponent to complain because I didn't have enough linemen minis, as long as you don't have throwers you can use a thrower mini. Alternatively:
Use DE WH minis (if you play that army) or
Use the plastic human linemen that come with the game.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 3:43 pm

Vargtass wrote:The above argument was based on the recommendations of Ian Williams on a completely different matter, namely how to keep winning with Lizardmen beyond TR 175. The advice (in short, you can look it up under the thread, but I can't get the quotes in order) was to get highly skilled saurus. The analogy here would be that higly skilled blitzers would be key to the long term success of DEs, and should thus be purchased as early as possible. Now, my opponent is not one for compromises, thats why he has decided on the 1 FF approach.

Well I don't agree and I think you've misinterpreted my statement about lizardmen and made an argument that I wouldn't.

Saurus and DE Blitzers are completely different players. For one thing DE blitzers skill up quickly. They score TDs and get casualties as well as the odd completion and interception. Saurus on the other hand skill up extremely slowly.

The lizardman team is very odd too. It doesn't really lend itself to the lineman/positional differentiation of other teams. For the overwhelming majority of teams (humans and orcs are the obvious exceptions) skilled linemen often form the backbone of the team that allows the positional players to win the game. Any team that is reliant on a few star players and doesn't skill up the rest is extremely vulnerable to targetted casualties (e.g. fouls) and generally performs less well in the long run.

High FF is a must for any team that you want to play more than a dozen games with. For Elves in particular its vital as all their players are expensive to replace and vulnerable.

martynq · Post by **martynq** » Tue Jun 22, 2004 4:20 pm

ianwilliams wrote:High FF is a must for any team that you want to play more than a dozen games with. For Elves in particular its vital as all their players are expensive to replace and vulnerable.

I just wanted to endorse this wholeheartedly.

In the league I joined recently, they play with a house-rule limiting FF to 5 at the start. My DE team suffered two deaths early on and it has taken me 7 matches to replace these... having a FF of 9 at the start would have been extremely helpful (and would have meant that I could have afforded to apoth immediately after the first game, for example).

Martyn

Vargtass · Post by **Vargtass** » Wed Jun 23, 2004 7:09 am

Thanks Ian, for your clarification, and sorry for any bad feelings caused. I really appreciate your advice on Lizards, and totally agree that this topic is on a completely different matter.

I did not mean to cite you incorrectly - I merely stated where my opponent got his inspiration. From your latest answer, I interpret (correct me if I'm wrong again) that the major misconception in my previous post is that DE blitzers have an easy time getting skills, and this makes most of the difference. Then, I also think you would not compromise FF down to 1 in a Lizards startup either.

I daresay my opponent will keep to his original plans anyway, so I will have to face his four blitzers anyway. In the long term, he will loose - you convinced me!

Vargtass