Cage-breaking in the new world

noodle · Post by **noodle** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:06 am

Some musings:

The key to good Blood Bowl is taking the ball off your opponent. Its also leads to the most exciting games when neither team can effectively hold on to possession... Its an 'open' game...

However the key to this is cage-breaking, and in the new rules I have noticed a few things...

1) Diving tackle is (fortunately) not the force it was, but allows "bashy" teams to more effectively build "the cage"

2) Stand firm - this used to allow you to break any cage wide open with most teams. Even with elves on a double. Combined with guard on human blitzers it made cages almost non viable unless the opponent also had stand firm and guard players! Now its been changed (for the better admittedly) but thats another cage breaking tactic gone...

3) Strip - ball is not as useful as it could be as sure hands nullifies it in any decent cage.

4) Kicking rules - leap, dirty kick, strip ball - a wonderful combination and great equaliser, but not available in "vanilla" Blood Bowl.

So I ask, are we doomed to have very possession driven games of Blood Bowl as teams now develop? It seems there are inumerable ways to get better at keeping the ball, but few to break open the cage and retrieve possession...

How do YOU break cages and get the ball??

Vero · Post by **Vero** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 10:16 am

The basic five man cage is easy.

x-x
-b-
x-x

b-Ballcarrier
x-enemy player, X-prone
y-your player

Hit to one corner with blitz and move some men to another and next turn it's either a hard pass or or no cage. Elves just leap into cage. If the cage is larger then it needs a bit improvising

Something like this after first breaking turn:
-y-
xXy
-by
x-xy
yyy

viewtopic.php?t=10937 has some good ideas too.

noodle · Post by **noodle** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 10:21 am

Thats not exactly cage breaking, more "stepping all my players next to his and then watching them die"

What you have described is the "standard tactic" when trying to break down a cage... but imagine that the four X's are four blitzers with guard, for example....Or are black orcs...

Thats where the real "cages-o-doom" come from at about Team Rating 150, which then are very hard to break down...

As for elves leaping in - thats usually suicide

In addition - notice that the manouvre has cost the employment of 7 of your players and only 5 of his... He now has 6 other players to block/blitz the offending tackle zone off the ball and reform the cage elsewhere, where you only have 4 or less defenders....

Just my thoughts

Tim · Post by **Tim** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 2:47 pm

Imo, the best method against cages is not breaking them, but slowing them down and deny the opponent the grinding factor by minimizing his blocking possibilities.

Otherwise if you need to break the cage, you'll have to take some higher risk. AG based team leap or dodge players in, going for 1dice or even 2dice against is an option. With frenzy, you might be able to get 2 dice in favor on a second block if you position some guards in advance.

Using high-STR players with break tackle is another option. Even without break tackle ... a 6+ dodge with a RR succeds in over 30%! So try to have those Sauri dodge into the cage, a stunned face of your opponent is a worthwhile bonus (he'll call you lucky afterwards). If you have standfirm, you'll not even risk a turnover.

In higher TRs, freebooting a wizard for the fireball spell is another possibilty.

noodle · Post by **noodle** » Thu Jul 01, 2004 2:50 pm

Thats all true, but a bit last gasp or dull

What I am saying is that the truly open games have gone because there are no true "cagebreaker" teams out there any more like there were...

So games can be a bit predictable...

chunky04 · Post by **chunky04** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 7:39 am

Possibly you're focusing on the wrong ways of doing it. All the solutions you posted involve getting to the middle of the cage and blocking the ball carrier. That is what cages work well against.

Tim's idea is much better. Take it a step further, try leaving a small gap in the defences, but make it one that will require some work to get through it. Often this will break the shape of the cage for you, giving you a much better look at the ball carrier. Another option is to use chain pushbacks to expose the ball carrier. Instead of using that standfirm guy to blitz, try putting him in a position that will allow a chain push. Then put as many tz's as you can on the ball carrier, and hit him next turn. Or even better, set it up so you can then block him.

Make sure once you've broken the cage, to get rid of the ball! Throw it downfield to an empty square if need be, but get it away from the cage if you want to be able to get it.

noodle · Post by **noodle** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 8:38 am

Being highly aware of such tactics, players in our league will avoid apparent opportunities to advance if it will lead to an "impacted cage" where the shape is broken up... Chain pushbacks, while fun, are almost unheard of against cage teams in our league...

In addition, while the accepted stragtegy is to do what you have posted, this is risky and doesn't work well with say elves against orcs... The elves have to get stuck in, which is what the orcs want, and it becomes a slugging match...

All I was saying is - as you have pointed out, that the cage is very good at protecting the ball carrier. Much better than in the last edition in my opinion, which for me leads to less dynamic and edgy games (above team rating 150, before that the players are too bad to make proper cages

)

I'm not sure how I would resolve it, but in our league the school of "8:16" is still very popular. Only two (very successful) players have mastered the "dynamic game" and not for a while...

Relborn · Post by **Relborn** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 8:54 am

Well the main strategy for elves and other fast and high AG teams is preventing that such a cage buids up at all.

This shouldn't be too hard for elves, while the skill use of kick, dodge and leap should help to get in the opponents backfield before they have the opportunity to build up the cage.

When the cage is running, it is real hard for such teams to break it up and get the ball...

noodle · Post by **noodle** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:09 am

That is a very good point, definitely something to look into...

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:53 am

TBH against good coaches I've found the cage a fairly weak propostion.

Its easy to slow/stop cages by throwing players at it or even just standing off. Eventually you'll run out of time and have to force the pace - leaving the ball carrier exposed.

Blodge, sidestep, diving tackle player(s) can make a mockery of cages as enough players get pinned to be unable to move it effectively.

Also there is the 1/2 dice block option. Gutter Runners with strip ball and/or block can often run into the cage (5+ with a RR has a 55% chance of working) and hit the ball carrier. This is even more effective against sideline cages where the push can result in the ball carrier going OOB.

I often think that many players underestimate how hard it is for a bashing team to get the cage working effectively.

noodle · Post by **noodle** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 10:17 am

In the Albion league it has become an art form

Standing off has been tried, and the opposition use that time where they can to maim players - not always successfully...

The preferred tactic is to "roll" the cage down the pitch - I have seen it done with orcs, humans and, amazingly most successfully with wood elves...

Then its a case of either getting the cage next to the end zone and camping there till turn 8 or knowing you have a fast ball carrier for the turn 8 dash...

I have seen a lot of BAD cage play, with "impacted" cages and cages with too many players etc, but (after 7 years) a number of our coaches are VERY experienced in how to build a team and make cage play work (kinda like Greece

)

I do not deny that blodge and sidestep are great weapons in trying to stop a cage, but its still quite a negative way of playing the game (I want to get stuck in, steal the ball and run off!) even if it can be quite tense...

1/2 dice blocks are an option, and, since we can all do th maths, they are used

(though somehow its still galling when someone makes a 5+ with reroll and I can't make 3+ with reroll - the hardest dice roll in the game

). However if it goes wrong - its at least a stunned player....

I shall have to look at more playing styles as I go to more tournaments. Our most successful players have been an even mix of "dynamic" players and "cage, 8:16" players, though the latter have predominated more recently - since the cage *is* easier to defend now with a less powerful stand firm, only one leap per turn and dauntless becoming a trait...

We will see in our new league season!

Interestingly I would say the recent winner of the Blood Bowl GT is a cage player, unless he has dramatically changed his style of play since leaving the Albion league

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 10:44 am

A great tactic against cage teams is not to allow them to manage the game time. They want to score on Turn 8 so you have no chance to reply - don't let them! Make them score on Turn 5, if you can, so that you have 3 or 4 turns to score yourself.

Also, standing off a cage is the best tactic. Unless your opponent gets lucky on the initial LoS blocks, you should have the manpower to contain him. Remember - you can block back!

If your opponent doesn't put his players in your TZs, then he can't advance.

noodle · Post by **noodle** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 11:09 am

Forcing your opponent into scoring early is very effective, but very tricky. A good cage player will score in turn 8 unless they are about to lose the ball imminently...

Standing off the cage buys time, but if one mistake is made, the cage player will blitz an opening, slip the cage through and get a line of players protecting the cage, now in your half! Worst case scenario...

Against strength teams - especially with black orcs its a losing game to try to break the cage by tackle zones and blocks - you will be strengthed out of it - *if* the cage player has successfully got his BOs and blitzers into action....

...preventing the cage seems the best bet, with kick being a much underated skill it would seem....

IMHO:D

Tim · Post by **Tim** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 11:36 am

If you are interested, this PBeM file from my TBBCup match against Nazgit is a very good example of cage play and how to defend it very well. With a little less luck i could have failed to score with my cage in both drives.

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 5:52 pm

Oh shucks!

You're too nice.

@noodle : At the end of the day it is a game of two halves. What was I going to say?

Oh yeah.

Both cager and his opponents have tactics to use that help him out. There are lots of good suggestions here as to defending against a cager, but as you say the cager has ways of countering them. It all boils down to this: if you play better than your opponent (luck withstanding) you will probably beat him. Don't know if that helps, but you know what I mean.