Luck and fundamental changes to BB

[Duke Jan]

Well, with safe throw your passer is really good at avoiding interceptions. There are a lot more of those skills that really improve the chance of actions succeeding. But when I read this in the BUBBLE thread I started wondering why you started this thread.

he receives. and gets a gutterrunner in my backfield with ball who is unreachable when he GFI's. he fails. LOL.

[Cooper]

Well, with safe throw your passer is really good at avoiding interceptions. There are a lot more of those skills that really improve the chance of actions succeeding. But when I read this in the BUBBLE thread I started wondering why you started this thread.

he receives. and gets a gutterrunner in my backfield with ball who is unreachable when he GFI's. he fails. LOL.

I never said i don't like the game, i do. and strange things happening is usually a good laugh. but with me that laugh just leaves a bit of a bitter taste if i would have won, because of that 35/36 chance failing. (but in this case it didn't change the score much, as he got his luck back on the next important roll, 1dpow against a blodger.

W

[Cooper]

oh, btw, everywhere where i said 12% i meant 18% (even more than 12!)
brainfart
W

[gken1]

well I think qb's in the NFL throw int's about 5% of the time. Using the 16% chance for INT is off because that's just the chance if the ball goes over a player. On most passes there isn't even an INT attempt. SO IF one in 3 passes has an INT attempt then 1 in 18 passes will be intercepted..........right about where NFL passers are. So the #'s do reflect about what "REAL LIFE" should.

[Munkey]

Like Galak say's BB is already more skill based than it is luck. In my opinion, assuming equal teams, then 99% of the time luck only wins games when the coaches are of equal skill (and even then draws are common).

Most of your suggestions would rule out things that are not a problem anyway, or that make some games fun. I don't want to see a game where no one makes those last minute desparation passes, and if you are reguarly suffering from triple pow three dice against Blocks you should swap dice with your opponent

Sure double 1's sucks but that's life, a better coach would have made sure that if he did roll this his position was as safe as possible.

If one coach puts himself in a position where he can throw and be intercepted then that's a risk he'll have to accept, try to clear the passing lane if it's a problem. Failing that there's always Safe Throw.

What i'm trying to say is, what you thought was bad luck could just have been worse luck than your opponent, or bad given the situation - perhaps if you (or your opponent) had been playing better the luck would have mattered less.

[Tim]

Don't agree that BB is too much luck based, it's pretty much on the right level.

The only two points you could start discussion with me is the Kickoff table and MAYBE the possibility to use more than 1 RR per turn and/or RR a roll more than once.

[Dave]

Hi cooper .. same arguments again eh


about the riot .. at the bubble it was D3 turns ..

about the interception . I think that when you are forced to throw a pass over an opponents head you (most of the time) got outplayed, so the shot at the ball represents that

I agree that blitz is extremely powerfull, but so is perfect defence .. I think Blitz is getting nerfed for the next LRB .. we'll see what it is then ..

About the rest .. I tend to agree with Tim and Galak that the game is OK .. the ranking in most tournaments show that, usually quite a few of the same players finish in the top 25% (and you must have won most of yer matches for that) .. There's allways that match with the 1 RR 1 early in a turn or 5 cas against in 2 turns .. but that's why NUFFLE Sucks

[LordSigmund]

TOBYBOWL!

[Cooper]

Don't agree that BB is too much luck based, it's pretty much on the right level.

The only two points you could start discussion with me is the Kickoff table and MAYBE the possibility to use more than 1 RR per turn and/or RR a roll more than once.

Ah well that is a start i guess...

How about:

no maximum number of team rerolls per turn, and you can use a teamreroll even after your skill reroll. (in other words: if you have the skill you could roll 1-1-2 and still make it) Why shouldn't you be able to train on something you are allready good at?

W
(perhaps nt even a maximum # of rr per roll?)

[Cooper]

from the bubble thread:

6. Necromantic, Cern, table 1.
.....

At some point around turn 4, ...., although i got a chance to stop his touchdown in turn 5 where i needed a dodge with the Ogre to get a Blitz on his ball-carrying ghoul in the widezone (2 RR 3, darn). Then another chance in his turn 7 when he decided to throw a 2db against block on my Ogre who had managed to pin the Ghoul next to the sideline. He was lucky and managed to get him down, clearing the way for his score in turn 8,

so, what you are saying is: "if i rolled a 4+ on one of the ogres rolls (75%chance) i would have won this game, and with some luck the tournament"?

Or with 2d-against if he rolled a skull (chance of that not happening: 25/36) (chance of your Ogre going down: only 25%).

Which part of "there is a whole lot of luck involved" is not true?

W

[Cooper]

Hi cooper .. same arguments again eh

Yep, and it seems i am not the only one, as our league is losing a coach (not me) because of exactly this feature of bb. too bad really.

about the interception . I think that when you are forced to throw a pass over an opponents head you (most of the time) got outplayed, so the shot at the ball represents that

so what you're saying is that my opponent outplayed me, if he relies on a 5+/6+ on THAT roll THAT moment without rr????

I agree that blitz is extremely powerfull, but so is perfect defence .. I think Blitz is getting nerfed for the next LRB .. we'll see what it is then ..

yep, both are about equally bad in my book.

About the rest .. I tend to agree with Tim and Galak that the game is OK .. the ranking in most tournaments show that, usually quite a few of the same players finish in the top 25% (and you must have won most of yer matches for that) .. There's allways that match with the 1 RR 1 early in a turn or 5 cas against in 2 turns .. but that's why NUFFLE Sucks

Nuffle sucks he does...why not try to give Nuffle less influence?

W

[Dave]

so what you're saying is that my opponent outplayed me, if he relies on a 5+/6+ on THAT roll THAT moment without rr????

nope .. what I'm saying is that he forced you to take that 5+/6+ risk by positioning his players spread out or anything .. I think the bigger, slightly unbalanced features like DP together with GTR, Blitz are more in for a change than the one in six chances you are also mentioning.

Blocks are pretty random as is, and taking 2D blocks all the time minimalizes that as much as possible withing the game but still you cannot expect all crucial rolls to go correct, even if it's a 1 in 100 chance ..

I can easily live with using more than one RR in a turn, I dislike a 3rd RR but could even live with that .. using the RR 's in one turn endangeres you for later so ...


All in all .. I'd like the wackier randomness to be out off the game / diminished but think the game is OK for the rest of the rules .. You should read the Vault rules btw ..

[Tim]

Which part of "there is a whole lot of luck involved" is not true?

None. There is a whole lot of luck (i'd rather way chance) involved, but that's OK in my opinion. I don't agree that it's too much, like you claim.

Managing chance is a major part of the game. What you proclaim is a whole different game.

[Cooper]

so what you're saying is that my opponent outplayed me, if he relies on a 5+/6+ on THAT roll THAT moment without rr????

nope .. what I'm saying is that he forced you to take that 5+/6+ risk by positioning his players spread out or anything..

Yes ofcourse, if your opponent forces you to throw over him than he is playing a good game. But if you are throwing the winning pass-catch with way more chance to succeed (say elfthrower and elfcatcher) why should he win because he rolled a 6 at that very moment...

What i mean is: interceptions can lead to this situation:
you have both played a good game, but you have the played a bit better; you have the ball and all.

It all comes down on one dice-roll of your opponent. If it is a 6 he wins, if it is not, you win.

[
.. I think the bigger, slightly unbalanced features like DP together with GTR, Blitz are more in for a change than the one in six chances you are also mentioning...

I don't mind seeing those changed either, so that is good.

Blocks are pretty random as is, and taking 2D blocks all the time minimalizes that as much as possible withing the game but still you cannot expect all crucial rolls to go correct, even if it's a 1 in 100 chance ..

I can easily live with using more than one RR in a turn, I dislike a 3rd RR but could even live with that .. using the RR 's in one turn endangeres you for later so .....

Right, it gives you more tactical choices, i think that is allways good.

All in all .. I'd like the wackier randomness to be out off the game / diminished but think the game is OK for the rest of the rules .. You should read the Vault rules btw ..

where can i find those? or a small resume of changes?

Since everybody wants chance still to be in there...how about just changing the system to a system in which small chances really can be small. a d20 based system for instance?

W

[Cooper]

oh, on the topic of rr's, what do you think about being able to use them in other ways to decrease the influence of one all deciding roll?

For instance:
1) you can burn a rr to make an interception fail
2) you can burn a rr before you roll a 2+ roll to automaticly pass it.
3) you can burn a rr before you roll to automaticly pass a 3+withskillroll
4) you can burn a rr for +1 on one of your dice
5) you can burn a rr for -1 on one of your opponents dice

W