Trouble with elves

Underdog · Post by **Underdog** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 11:02 pm

For a long time our league has been dominated by the agility game. I often hear and have read the stats that show elves do quite poorly but tonight I was playing with orcs and got my ass kicked 3-0 by some wood elves and its getting beyond a joke.

I suppose Im half having a moan and half asking for advice. We are playing vault and as I had the lowed TR I chose a chainsaw and a bribe as my inducments so I really had my heart set on causing some damage. He has a OTS and an AG5 Wardancer with stripball so they were my main targets. Anyway to cut a long story short besides my attempots to get medievil on him he just ran away with it everytime I got the ball he'd leap in on a 2+ and knock down my thrower and long passed to a OTS who would run in from his own half.

Please nobody reply saying 'just beat him up'. I tried that obviously. I fouled too but didnt do any damage and just got sent off. Also I know I need to get some tackle into the squad asap as its a realativly new team I was a bit thin on the ground there.

Im not just having a moan honest. My last team was Pro elves and I found them to be awsum as well dispite their poor reputation. Perhaps its just the way we play in out league. I dont understand it.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » Sun Nov 14, 2004 11:20 pm

1) bad luck happens
2) one tackler is enough, provided it stays on the field, but you definitely need one
3) how come he would knock your thrower over everytime he'd jump in the cage ? you have no Guard ? because if you have no Guard nor Tackle, i'm starting to wonder what your skills are

4) if his team was on a perfect shape, and yours was nearly newbie, it's really no wonder he crushed you. Woodies are reckoned to be overpowered, and only toned down by the fact they can't survive many rough games without having to be dissolved. still, as i said, if it was at its full strenght, and you had no luck on the CAS part, then there's really nothing you can do. it's a bit like getting your Woodies raped by Dwarves when they get someone off the pitch every other block, and you fail your first dodge all the time

Underdog · Post by **Underdog** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:22 am

Thanks for the reply.

Gus wrote: 3) how come he would knock your thrower over everytime he'd jump in the cage ? you have no Guard ? because if you have no Guard nor Tackle, i'm starting to wonder what your skills are

Yes, Its a very Newb team. Only three games

. Still his team has only played four so I didnt feel like it was a particualrly unfair line-up. In fact I particualrly chose to play that team becuase I through it might be an easy ride. He has skilled up a lot fast though and managed to avoid major beatings so far.

There are soem

elves in our league. Darkies with ST4 Blogde, stepasside whiches, High elves with lots of Guard, a OTS and a ST4 Blitzer with Tackle and mighty Blow and throwers with accurate and strong arm and Nos. My Pro elves were pretty good too even though I didnt roll a single double or Stat increase in 10 games.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:46 am

well, i'm not necessarily of a lot of help because i don't exactly know the vault pricing, and i don't really have the new TV feeling, but i'm wondering how comes that you had no skill, a regular team, and that he had a skilled one, without you being able to induce a lot of useful things :s

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:50 am

TBH the problem is almost certainly your tactics. A traditional "tight" cage isn't going to work consistently against that sort of team.

Tight Cage:

Code: Select all

X_X
_B_
X_X

X = your player
B = ball carrier

You need to develop a looser cage. The intention is not to stop the blitz on the ball carrier, but to ensure that should he get hit your opponent will have more difficulty picking up the loose ball.

Code: Select all

__W__
_____
X_X_X
_____
X_B_X
X___X
__X__

W = war dancer

Now the rule is to keep your players moderately bunched up. Don't spread the play out - concentrate it. Also ensure that when he does attack the ball carrier he has to get a lot of players in position to neutralise your assists (the above example is poor at that).

That should give you enough blocks and fouls that he begins to run out of players. Concentrate your efforts against the war dancers (One turn wonders are annoying and he can score in 1 turn with a rookie catcher anyway).

So in that game, given the option, I'd have kicked. Let him score in 1 or 2 turns *taking people out is your primary aim*. If you get the ball (or he scores) then spend the rest of the half systematically destroying his team by sucking them into your loose cage. 2nd half should be a repeat leaving him with too few players to effectively make a 1 turn score at the end of the game.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:51 am

Oh - and there aren't too many teams that compete well against higher TV Woodies.

martynq · Post by **martynq** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 9:57 am

I agree with the above... against a wood elf team with an undeveloped team without Tackle and Guard and without much luck, you will lose. Wardancers are just very good early on and until you have the skills (or lucky dice) there is little you can do. Just keep developing you team (lots of Block, Tackle and Guard) and next time you will smash them into bits.

Martyn

Tim · Post by **Tim** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:46 am

I think your league is the problem ... in an all-AG league like you described (Dark, High, Pro, Wood), the teams develop unnaturally fast. I guess you have a lot 5-4 type results, causing enourmous SPP inflation. A new Orc team will find it hard to compete in this environment, because no other bash teams will help out to keep the elfs on their toes. A woodelf team with 4 games that has an AG5 Stripball wardancer and a OTS (that alone are 32 SPP, worth 11 TDs!) is the best example ...

martynq · Post by **martynq** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:53 am

One thing I've just noticed is that you say you are using the Vault Rules. What have you set your League Cap at? In the long-term this will help you. The elf teams will quickly get to that cap (for the reason Tim pointed out) and then will struggle to earn money. If you can cause deaths at that point it will help to reduce their effectiveness. In the meantime, I think you have to accept that you are playing catch-up and concentrate on developing your team rather than winning. (Any wardancers you can kill in the meantime will be very pleasant!)

Martyn

Redfang · Post by **Redfang** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:42 pm

Just beat him up. The coach I mean

R

Underdog · Post by **Underdog** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:11 pm

Gus wrote:well, i'm not necessarily of a lot of help because i don't exactly know the vault pricing, and i don't really have the new TV feeling, but i'm wondering how comes that you had no skill, a regular team, and that he had a skilled one, without you being able to induce a lot of useful things :s

The difference in Team values was 170k which I spent on a Chainsaw Orc for 50k a Bribe the Ref for 100k a Cheerleader and an assistant coach for 10 a piece. The Chainsaw managed to get a hit most turns but never resulted in anything more than a stun. I used the Bribe to keep the chainsaw on the field after he was sent off. The A/C won me a RR on the first kick off and thats all my handicaps spent.

Underdog · Post by **Underdog** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:17 pm

ianwilliams wrote: You need to develop a looser cage. The intention is not to stop the blitz on the ball carrier, but to ensure that should he get hit your opponent will have more difficulty picking up the loose ball.
Code: Select all
__W__
_____
X_X_X
_____
X_B_X
X___X
__X__
W = war dancer

Thanks Ian that was extreemly useful. I was operating a tight cage as in your top diagram and as you said he only has to move in 2 players to remove my assists. Your bottom diagram requires at least a minimum of three.

Underdog · Post by **Underdog** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 1:23 pm

martynq wrote:One thing I've just noticed is that you say you are using the Vault Rules. What have you set your League Cap at? In the long-term this will help you. The elf teams will quickly get to that cap (for the reason Tim pointed out) and then will struggle to earn money. If you can cause deaths at that point it will help to reduce their effectiveness. In the meantime, I think you have to accept that you are playing catch-up and concentrate on developing your team rather than winning. (Any wardancers you can kill in the meantime will be very pleasant!)

Martyn

We've set the Legaue cap at the lowest possible 1,500,000. Teams frequently hit it. In fact more than half the competting teams are currently at it or above. We regularly discuss whether it should be raised but the only significant outcome of a raise at the moment would be that elves could buy back deceased players. Some of the elves I was talking about above are at about 1,180,000 so havent had any income for some time. There was another wood elf team that got down to 7 players and couldnt afford to repalce any because the ones he had left we so expensive and he couldnt bring himself to sack his stars to get soem more cash into his team. They were retired befor it got too grim.

Aksho · Post by **Aksho** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:02 pm

dont feel 2 upset because of losing against Woodelfes. Woodis and Skaven are able 2 make so quick so many TD`s that it is always hard to beat them.
Short time ago I have played against an 8 games experienced orc team with my darkis, ok in the end I also won, but I really had to pay for it. At the end of the game I had more players off the field then on the field

With some good Blocks and maye some skilled Blackorks and Blitzers you can crush an AV7 team easyly, trust me

mfg Bernd

Underdog · Post by **Underdog** » Mon Nov 15, 2004 4:16 pm

Its only just dawned on me that perhaps its not just 'the way our league plays' but that the vault rules have created a slight unbalance towards the elves.

Firstly in Vault 1.1-6 starting FF is free so thats 10-90k extra to spend making linemen into possitionals. Hopefully this situation will be sorted out in 1.7 as I hear the plan is to make FF purchased again which I think is a good idea.

Also with Indements able to cover injured players Elves are not afraid to start with only 11 players these days. The shorts of it are that many elf teams are starting with full or near full possitionals which I think is a shame. The whole point is elves are better than humans but if you chose humans you dont have to worrie so much about injuries and you get more possitionals. The vault has damaged this game dynamic somewhat I think.

For example the Welfs I speak of began with Two Wardancers, Two catchers, one thrower, 6 lino's 1 RR and 20k in the bank. How many LRB games would it take to safely get this team. Quite a few I would have thought.