Wild Animal Rules - Suggested Change

[McDeth]

Sorry to drag this one back up, but would it not ease the situation if defensive assists were not allowed either, if he's too wild for he's own players to help, then surely the opposition players wouldn't want to get in his way either.

[Balrog]

I don't think we'll ever reach a consensus about Wild Animal, but of all the suggestions so far I prefer Neoliminal's.

Here's what my league uses, we like it:

Wild Animal -
Wild Animals must move first.
Roll a die, on a 1 he goes wild! The Wild Animal will block/blitz the nearest player, friend or foe, and without any team mate assists. If there are several players within the same distance then the player may choose his target from those players, if no targets are within the movement range of the Wild Animal then he just stands there frothing.
If the Wild Animal blitzes then this takes up his team's blitz action for that turn.
If the Wild Animal is knocked over, no turnover occurs. However, if the Wild Animal attacks a team mate and knocks him down, then a turnover occurs.

[Marcus]

This is as close to the old 3rd ed WA as you're going to get. I think Chet mentioned he was dead against anything anything "good" happening as the result of a failed WA roll.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that this rule has no more "good" things happening than the existing rule. He is forced into a particular type of action, just as he is now. There's no bonuses here, the coach has lost control of the player.

I like that it uses the team's blitz. That was always a pain in the 3rd ed rules and meant that the WA could really screw up your day.

I would prefer to see it as a 4+, 2+ if player is adjacent kind of roll, especially if a failed WA does not cause a turnover.

I agree that a failed WA must not cause a turnover if the WA is forced to move first. It encourages game-mechanic beardiness which should not occur.

Case in point. Turned over our Orc Coach in our game last tuesday. Ran a Gutter Runner down the far sideline with players fanning out into a screen. The only way he could turn me over was to move in with his thrower and attempt a 1 die block against a blodge player...

or

He could run in completely the opposite direction and surround my Rat Ogre, hoping to force a turnover and buy him time to bring more assists in to pound my gutter runner.

The second option had the best odds, and is completely and utterly against the spirit of the game.

I'm personally happy with almost any incarnation of the WA rule, but the start of turn turnover element must go.

Marcus

[Relborn]

why not just remove the necessity to move the WA first ?

[DoubleSkulls]

IMO, its not enough of a penalty just to remove the go first or must block/blitz. However together its too much.

Ian

[Snew]

When I form a team I go more for the flavor of the team regardless of how I will actually be able to play it. As such, I usually have a RO and I love the unpredictability of it, lending lots of color to the team, I hate how costly, in game terms it can be. I can't count how many times they've ended turns. Even when they were at an advantage.

If I were to suggest a change, it would be to remove the "must move first" clause. It never made much sense to me anyway. Aren't all actions, mostly, taking place simultaneously? Having this beast going first, regardless of how much sense the move makes, AND not having a reroll available to them is more than many coaches can bear. If the requirement to go first were removed, I think we'd see more of them utilized. This may/may not be a good thing, depending on your point of view. I, for one, would like to see more, both for me and opposed to me.

All that said, I don't think we'll ever actually see a change. From someone who uses them, though, this is my 2 cents.

[Marcus]

Must move first is a nice game mechanic that ensures that it's difficult for the Rat Ogre to work as part of the team. I've never really had trouble with this rule - it's a much bigger disadvantage than people seem to recognise and it fits well with the flavour.

It's the Must Move First and Must Perform An Action That Risks Turnover that is the big problem.

I'm happy with any change to the rule that removes that combination of circumstances from the game.

Neo's Berzerk rule is nice provided you burn the team's blitz (not debilitating enough otherwise) and provided it doesn't cause a turnover if the WA falls down (helps with the "which blocking dice" problem and prevents uncontrolable turnovers.)

I also like the current rule but with the option to not take an action at all.

I'd also be happy with "Must move first, can't claim assists, can't carry the ball"

Whatever. I could wallpaper a room with the number of WA rules I've seen or seen suggested. All I know is that the current one is the worst of the lot.

Marcus

[Dangerous Dave]

Well if you remove the must move first part the trait is hardly negative at all. If you say they can do nothing but must go first then that is only slightly more negative.

I don't mind changing the trait... but it must be negative and more negative than Bonehead and at least on a par with Really Stupid.

Dave

[plasmoid]

I noticed that Galaks HotList about WA pointed here, so I thought I'd mention an idea for a new WA that got positive response in another thread.

1) remove frenzy from the WAs
2) rewrite WA: Wild Animals have a tendency to lash out at anything that moves. The Tackle Zone of a Wild Animal is considered an enemy tackle zone by both teams! This means that it will prevent it's team mates from giving assists, and that it's team mates will have to dodge in order to leave it's Tackle Zone.

Martin

[Warprat]

Here's another idea:


Based on Acerak

* Must take action first.
* Can neither lend nor receive assists.

* If the WA is on the pitch, the WA must use the team's Blitz actions. No other player on that team may Blitz. The WA hogs all the action.


If the Wild Animal is truely wild, make him use the Blitz action every turn he's on the pitch, even if just rolling over. Since the player using the Blitz action MAY choose to throw a Block or not during the move, the excessive turnover problem is solved, at the expense of the Block action during the Blitz.


Warprat ;)

[Tim]

@Dave:

Why the heck must WA be worse than BH? I don't see any reason for that. It should be balanced with BH imo, otherwise the RO is too expensive.

I think that we need a completly new negatrait to replace WA. It should be something that is completly ignored on a certain dice roll like all other negatraits. I very much agree with some of the proposal that have been posted to this forum in that context.

Cheers,
Tim.

[Warprat]

Tim wrote:

Why the heck must WA be worse than BH? I don't see any reason for that. It should be balanced with BH imo, otherwise the RO is too expensive.

I think that we need a completly new negatrait to replace WA. It should be something that is completly ignored on a certain dice roll like all other negatraits. I very much agree with some of the proposal that have been posted to this forum in that context.

Hi Tim, sorry to butt in here, but I just can't help making an ass of myself.

My personal view is that BH is waaay too mild a counter for Frenzy/Str 5 combo. Many games, my Troll isn't even affected by it, even though he plays every turn possible.

On the other hand, something REALLY must be done to prevent the game blowing insanity that the current Wild Animal rule is. Coaches are forced to use WA's as safeties and so forth. That's crap...

WA's should be the raw unfocused power player they were meant to be.
But ballenced of course.

I like many of the ideas presented here too, if only in spirit. One thing though, I would like to see less player actions that require a die roll. I'd like to see the game based more on skill than luck.


Warprat

[Dangerous Dave]

Why must Wild Animal be worse than Bonehead? Simple

A 6538 Frenzy, Mighty Blow, Prehensile Tail would just about be the best scoring machine(and everything else too) in Bloodbowl (add in mutations to the mix too and this one can get really gross quickly). All the other regular Big Guys are much worse - sure Ogres are probably the best apart from Rat Ogres. However, 2 AG means that they are not very reliable ball handlers.

So to balance them they must either have a bad negative trait (BH is not nearly bad enough IMO)... or the stats / skills need to change.


Dave

[Tim]

... and again the Mino is forgotten! That poor creature combines the evil WA with a poor AV8 and AG2, average movement. I don't see a team choosing him over an ogre or even a troll.

All negatraits should be on the same level and should NOT be a tool to balance players. I have no problem with removing frenzy from the RO or raising the cost to 140k, but on the otherhand ppl seem to forget that the RO is supposed to be the best BigGuy in the game, as he's the most expensive and only plays for the skaven team, that really needs a potent BigGuy to remain competitive against the ever-strengthening competition.

Also you say the RO is a scoring machine. In a team with 4 gutterrunners this is not really true. Also having to move first makes the RO absolutly useless for ballhandling!

I agree that the RO is very good compared to other BGs, but as he only plays for the skaven team i think he's very much balanced, even with a less vicious WA negatrait.

[Snew]

Anyone else get sick when they picture a Rat Ogre handling his balls? I wish people would quit putting RO and ballhandling to close together. Damn, now I just did it.