What is a believable peasant statline?

Got a great idea and/or proposal for BloodBowl?

Moderator: TFF Mods

What is a believable peasant statline?

6-3-2-7
17
33%
6-3-3-6
13
25%
They're both OK. No preferences.
5
10%
I can't believe either of those to be human stats.
16
31%
 
Total votes: 51

plasmoid
Legend
Legend
Posts: 5334
Joined: Sun May 05, 2002 8:55 am
Location: Copenhagen
Contact:

Post by plasmoid »

Hi McDeth,
would you believe that one of the first incarnations of the roster actually had that peasant statline, (though with dodge skill). Man, that was ages ago :D

Anyways - the 2 statlines above are currently the only ones up for consideration. Well, those, or the classic 6337. (Otherwize we'd really have to change the team significantly).

Cheers
Martin

Reason: ''
User avatar
Gus
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Ex-Mega Star, now just a Super Star
Posts: 1272
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2004 4:18 pm
Location: France

Post by Gus »

plasmoid wrote: My point is that if the players are priced correctly, then that would indicate that the players really aren't that powerful - and that the team will get into trouble in a longer season.
sorry to jump in again, but you really are missing something crucial here. you are "self-checking" your prices. it is hard for me to express that in english, but i will try anyway.

you are speaking about "correct" pricing, ok ? but what defines it ? a formula, more or less exact. something that has been used with the teams, but which has been balanced on a case-by-case basis. see the difference in cost between the human/orc or DE/HE throwers.
now, basically, you're saying that if your linos are bad and cheap, then your positionals can be good and not-necessarily-expensive, because they are priced according to a formula. this is terribly wrong.
plasmoid wrote:I do have a problem with a stat decrease and no price change. You can see it like this: If the decrease wasn't sufficient to put him at 30K, then he isn't a significantly weaker player.
why why why ? the decrease isn't necessarily meant to represent the EXACT pricing of the player, because such thing as EXACT objective pricing does not exist. once again, one example is the aforementioned throwers. rather, the point is to make the team balanced, as part of the game. fluff and logic and comparison between armour or whatever should be irrelevant when it comes to balancing.
in solid, part-of-the-game teams, you have differences in price between players with the same stats. add to that that the formulas you use don't necessarily (i don't know, i only know about JJ's one) take everything into account. one of your kinghts has Guard. well, what about giving him Diving Catch and Hail Mary Pass instead, and bumping his price by 20k ? should make sense according to the formula, still it would be ridiculous. in turn, that comes to show that Guard probably is a great skill to start with, which means that maybe the knight who has it should be "overpriced". Maybe you already did that to this particular case, it was only to illustrate my point.
So, i repeat it once again, cheap linos obtained by decreasing non-crucial stats are a wrong way to look at the game imo.


EDIT: err, sorry, i was just answering to things you said, assuming they were on-topic.

Reason: ''
I do it for the pun of it !
plasmoid
Legend
Legend
Posts: 5334
Joined: Sun May 05, 2002 8:55 am
Location: Copenhagen
Contact:

Post by plasmoid »

Hi Gus,
I adressed some of that on the specialist games forum.
This poll was specifically not about pricing, and I would like it to remain that way.
Thanks :)
Martin

Reason: ''
Ravage
Star Player
Star Player
Posts: 623
Joined: Tue Oct 05, 2004 7:38 pm
Location: CT, USA
Contact:

Post by Ravage »

5/2/3/7, 30k.

Reason: ''
plasmoid
Legend
Legend
Posts: 5334
Joined: Sun May 05, 2002 8:55 am
Location: Copenhagen
Contact:

Post by plasmoid »

Hi all,
thanks for your votes.

I'm glad to see that the majority of voters can percieve stats below 6337 as human stats.
6327 is doing the best in the poll, which suits me fine since that was the statline I playtested with.
So I'll probably stick to it.

Thanks again,
Martin :D

Reason: ''
Mestari
Legend
Legend
Posts: 3365
Joined: Tue Jun 04, 2002 7:01 am
Location: Finland, Oulu

Post by Mestari »

Give them bonehead as an added bonus, if your team is anything like the usual bretonnian teams (did I ever mention I dislike the idea of a team with knights? :wink:), the knights are bound to be ridiculous. :lol:

Reason: ''
[url=http://www.talkbloodbowl.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3460]-[/url]Teemu
[i][size=67]Don't lynch me! I'm the captain of the carpet ship![/size][/i]
plasmoid
Legend
Legend
Posts: 5334
Joined: Sun May 05, 2002 8:55 am
Location: Copenhagen
Contact:

Post by plasmoid »

Hi Mestari,
>(did I ever mention I dislike the idea of a team with knights? :wink: ),

I guess you aren't the only one.
Perhaps calling them cyber-fantasy spikes and leather knights will please some :wink:
Either way, in my background material for the team, I describe how playing Blood Bowl has become an accepatble substitute for questing for the grail (i.e. the Blood Bowl Trophy) in Bretonnia. That makes it a game for the aristocracy of Bretonnia. Naturally, feel free to dislike that rationale.

I don't find knights in BB that strange, once you realize that it is meant as a cultural title. Like witch elf, longbeard, slayer or gutter runner.

>the knights are bound to be ridiculous. :lol:
It depends. :)
My knights certainly aren't as hideous as werewolves or wardancers.
And being humans, they have neither ST4 or AG4.
I find them balanced. YMMV.
But thanks for the feedback. :D
Martin

Reason: ''
plasmoid
Legend
Legend
Posts: 5334
Joined: Sun May 05, 2002 8:55 am
Location: Copenhagen
Contact:

Post by plasmoid »

Hi all,
for those interested, I'm posting my team and background. I hope you like it:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Greetings Sire
I think it is time to re-introduce the Bretonnians into BB. I know that the warhammer world isn't the BB world, but we can still draw inspiration from it. The Bretonnians are one of the major players in the warhammer world, and if we can have an amazon and a norse team in addition to the human team, then we can certainly have Bretonnians too. The race has both fans and miniatures, and I don't think that being in the warhammer game should count against them.

The team presented below is around the 6th incarnation of our Bretonnian team, which has changed along with the rules, feedback from forums, as well as with input from literally hundreds of playtest games.

Most recently, I've taken the above poll to find reasonable acceptance for peasants being AG2.

Also, I've replaced multiple block on the questing knights with juggernaut from the vault. I find it very appropriate that the knights have a "blitzing" skill, and this will also weaken the team slightly early on, which is OK. Coaches in non-vault leagues could house rule Juggernaut as a racial trait, to avoid introducing the skill on other teams.

Finally, I've run it through PinkHorrors power spreadsheet (http://www.blood-bowl.net/BloodBowlPlayers.html), with good results. For those interested, their stats were: POW65, VAL64 (block71, throw52, run54, potential62, pricing52).

Enjoy!

Introduction
Today, blood bowl is a very well respected sport in Brettonia. It is considered a great test of martial skills, and is considered equal to jousting, in preparing knights for the rigours of war. Every baron wants his own team, and it is considered a great honour indeed to compete in the royal court leagues. Even fair damsels who set the errants for budding young knights, have started to request "the scoring of many touchdowns".

But this is not how it has always been.

In the early years of Blood Bowl, the brettonians knew little of the game, and indeed it was disdained as a pastime for the commoners and ruffians of lesser nations. This was only changed by a mistake on the part of Jean Pierre Sansfortune - a brave, though unlucky, questing knight. Roaming the grey mountains, he heard of a huge grail adorned with skulls, held in the imperial city of Altdorf.
This was surely the grail he thought.

Jean Pierre travelled to Altdorf, and learned of the terrible ordeal he had to endure in order to lay hands on the grail, a trial worthy of the bravest knight - and so he joined the Reikland Reavers. For many years he struggled, until finally one day, he lead (sort of) his team to victory at Blood Bowl XI. Imagine Jean Pierre's disappointment when he finally held the grail, for there was no liquid in it from which to sip, and no lady of the lake to present it to him. Shattered, and disgraced, he quit the team, to return to his native Brionne.

However, on the first night of his journey home, he had a vision, a true visitation from the lady of the lake herself. She granted him her favour, for succeeding in his arduous quest, having braved all perils, and done what no other knight had done before him.
Back in Brettonia he was greeted a hero, and from that day, the Bloodweiser trophy was considered a worthy alternative to the grail, and blood bowl the sport of the virtuous....

Questing for the Grail
Over the years a number of different Bretonnian teams have been available on the internet, and it seems that there have been 2 approaches to the team: One is to portray the Bretonnians as a team of knights, squires and hangers on, while the other is to make them very similar to the official human team. As the introduction reveals, I prefer a Bretonnian team with knights and squires. I like new teams to offer unique advantages and interesting challenges, rather than duplicate old ones.

It is well worth noting that these "knights" and "squires" are meant as cultural titles, in much the same way as dwarven slayers, runners and longbeards - and are not meant to indicate that the knights are charging onto the pitch on their warhorses in lance formation. Also, these knights are playing in full Blood Bowl kit, not full plate mail. They are of course aristocrats playing Blood Bowl, not misplaced military personnel.

It is important to see this team as a real Blood Bowl team, rather than warriors who stopped for a quick game:
The knights decided to quest for the grail by forming a BB team.
Naturally they practice a lot for this rigorous quest.
Their squires, naturally, train too to best help their leiges.
And the linemen are whichever reasonably fit fillers the knights could hire, but are left to themselves for rudimentary practice.

The Players
The team consists of 2x2 knights, and 4 squires to match these lieges. The rest of the team is made up of lowly peasants, who are terrible blood bowl players. As for the types of knights on the team, the choice was obvious: Knights errant are young reckless knights out to prove their mettle ( - perhaps on the blood bowl pitch?), while questing knights are out there looking for the grail - having formed a team in order to retrieve it! Both of these would have every reason to play Blood Bowl.

The Stats
Being a team of humans, there was no way that the players could have an ST or AG above 3. Instead, their great martial prowess would have to be portrayed with a handful of skills.

The knights errant are the teams flashy recievers, playing for glory, reputation, and the occasional fringe benefit. You know what those Bretonnians say: "Score on the pitch - score with the ladies". Their squires help fetch the ball, so their masters can concentrate on getting those touchdowns.

The questing knights for their part are capable warriors, able to go toe to toe with terrible monsters, and famous for their bone-crunching blitzes. Their squires are trained to help out their lieges in the thick of the fighting.

The peasants? Cannon fodder to tie up the opposition while the knights take care of business.

The team rerolls are very expensive, to show that the peasants are not particularly skilled, while the knights are probably a little too interested in personal glory be labelled team players

The Roster

***The Bretonnian Team***********************************************
The royal court-leagues of bretonnia employ some of the best players
that mankind has to offer. With strong hands and steady nerves, the
brave knights of bretonnia quest for the 'other' grail - the blood
bowl trophy.

# gc title stats access skills
0-2 120K Questing Knights 6339 G,ST block, dauntless, juggernaut
0-2 70K Questor Squires 6338 G,ST guard
0-2 110K Errant Knights 7338 G,AG block, catch
0-2 60K Errant Squires 6338 G,PA Sure Hands
0-12 30K Peasants 6327 G -

ReRolls 70K. Apothecary and Wizard as normal. No Big Guy.
(Juggernaut is a skill from the vault: A player with this skill may treat both down as a push back (and cancels stand firm) when blitzing).
**********************************************************************

The Team
And that's the team. The team combines the very best of players with players that are next to worthless. Sure, the knights are truly awesome blood bowl players, but it will prove quite a challenge to any coach to make do with so few players of notable quality.

Martin

Reason: ''
McDeth
Legend
Legend
Posts: 3016
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Location: Worcester, England
Contact:

Post by McDeth »

I've found a flaw . How's thi for a starting line up

2 120K Questing Knights
2 70K Questor Squires
2 110K Errant Knights
1 60K Errant Squires
4 30K Peasants
FF 8
2 Re-Rolls

And if its a tourney Add a starting re-roll and drop FF, Jeez imagine a 110k tourney?????

Thats just too strong. Maybe noweher to develop except buy re-rolls league wise, but this is ridiculously overpowered. Need to do something to up the price of the Peasants. give them some useless skill and get them up to 50k and possibly even reduce the Number of positionals. Possibly get rid of the catchers and make them a predominantly running team.

Reason: ''
McDeth,
"Can't Sleep Clowns will eat me"

"Who's that Reverend Green??"
McDeth
Legend
Legend
Posts: 3016
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am
Location: Worcester, England
Contact:

Post by McDeth »

maybe give them nerves of steel or diving catch, something that they wont use too much

Reason: ''
McDeth,
"Can't Sleep Clowns will eat me"

"Who's that Reverend Green??"
User avatar
Joemanji
Power Gamer
Posts: 9508
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2003 3:08 pm
Location: ECBBL, London, England

Post by Joemanji »

McDeth, the whole point of this team is to have stupidly cheap linos so you can max out on positionals! :wink: That is what Plasmoid wants! I sound like a broken record. :lol: LOL at myself. :oops:

Reason: ''
*This post may have been made without the use of a hat.
plasmoid
Legend
Legend
Posts: 5334
Joined: Sun May 05, 2002 8:55 am
Location: Copenhagen
Contact:

Post by plasmoid »

Hi McDeth,
I Norse and Amazon can do exactly the same thing.
And that's with quality linemen.
Bretonnians are humans too, and can be built much like other humans teams. So I find it to be no more a flaw than on the other human teams.
And Nazgit, the team was "designed to do it" no more than the Norse/Amazon.

(Yes, some of the positionals are better for Brets, but Norse/Amazon linemen stay longer on pitch, and might even make a play with their AG3, providing a nice counter-balance).
Cheers :)
Martin

PS
Amazon:
4 blitzers 360
2 catchers 140
1 thrower 70
4 linemen 200
FF "11"
3 ReRolls 120

Norse
4 blitzers 360
2 catchers 140
1 thrower 70
4 linemen 200
FF "11"
2 ReRolls 120

Those aren't broken in a 100 or 110 TR environment, AFAIK.

(Also, 3 other official teams exist with 30K linemen).

Reason: ''
plasmoid
Legend
Legend
Posts: 5334
Joined: Sun May 05, 2002 8:55 am
Location: Copenhagen
Contact:

Post by plasmoid »

Hi again McDeth and Nazgit,
just wanted to add this:
I'm starting a 100% vault league (well apart from a few house teams) in march. We'll have a Bretonnian team in there - and we will keep an eye on whether the cheap linemen make them a power-side.
Cheers :)
Martin

Reason: ''
User avatar
MickeX
Super Star
Super Star
Posts: 773
Joined: Wed Oct 02, 2002 9:14 pm
Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Post by MickeX »

plasmoid wrote:0-2 60K Errant Squires 6338 G,PA Coconuts

Coconuts
Any player dressed in full pate mail starting an action beside a Coconut player, may choose a Coconut action. It works like a Move action, but as if that player had gained Sprint and Sure Feet.
Overpowered!

Reason: ''
[color=#444444][size=75] FUMBBL ::[url=http://fumbbl.com/FUMBBL.php?page=group&op=view&group=2315]TBB Group[/url][/size][/color]
plasmoid
Legend
Legend
Posts: 5334
Joined: Sun May 05, 2002 8:55 am
Location: Copenhagen
Contact:

Post by plasmoid »

ROFL :lol:
Martin :D

Reason: ''
Post Reply