Skaven vs. Elf

Gremlin · Post by **Gremlin** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 10:19 am

Can anyone explain to me, why I should play skaven, and not the elf team, because the elf team is simply better???

ok it is a bit more expensive, but is that all? i think a strenght of 2 is a harder drawback....

TuernRedvenom · Post by **TuernRedvenom** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 10:29 am

Skaven:
* are faster then any elf team (altough woodies come close)
* can take mutations on doubles
* can take a rat ogre big guy, which is still pretty good IMO
* have dirt cheap, expendable linemen (which makes a lot of difference)
* are generally less pass-oriented then elves

Pretty different teams IMO.

Gremlin · Post by **Gremlin** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 10:34 am

1. ok they are faster...
2. Are the Mutations THAT good? What mutation for example?
3. Is the Rat Ogre THAT good since in LRB4.0 he only has AG2
4. Ok they are cheaper
5. Explain why they are generally less pass-oriented than elves....

thx

CaptusMente · Post by **CaptusMente** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 10:43 am

2. Mutations are basically skills, only they usually have more of an impact than any corresponding skill that might or might not exist. They're surely an asset for a team, as they add options and variability. You can see all the skills & mutations in the Living Rulebook available for free from www.bloodbowl.com

3. Rat Ogres really aren't supposed to be runners, AG 2 is justified, and you can replace it with Break Tackle for the most part.

6. Ther're better runners and worse throwers.

TuernRedvenom · Post by **TuernRedvenom** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 10:52 am

Gremlin wrote: 2. Are the Mutations THAT good? What mutation for example?

Yes they are. Things like Claw, Razor Sharp Fangs, Foul Appearance, Horns, Tentacles... are all very good skills.

3. Is the Rat Ogre THAT good since in LRB4.0 he only has AG2

Think of him as a STR 5 tackle zone. Opponent will probably have quite some trouble getting him off the pitch. With Prehensive Tail he can pin players pretty good. And if he rolls a double on a skill (tentacles or claw) he will become a player that cannot be ignored.

5. Explain why they are generally less pass-oriented than elves....

Skaven don't have an AG 4 thrower for starters. They also have no players with the catch skill. Many skaven coaches will run/hand off/quick pass the ball between their gutter runners rather than throwing long passes.

Tim · Post by **Tim** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 12:12 pm

TuernRedvenom wrote:
Gremlin wrote: 2. Are the Mutations THAT good? What mutation for example?
Yes they are. Things like Claw, Razor Sharp Fangs, Foul Appearance, Horns, Tentacles... are all very good skills.

Yep and Very Long Legs. 1 double and a skill (Sprint) and a Gutterrunner can score in one turn.

3. Is the Rat Ogre THAT good since in LRB4.0 he only has AG2

Think of him as a STR 5 tackle zone. Opponent will probably have quite some trouble getting him off the pitch. With Prehensive Tail he can pin players pretty good. And if he rolls a double on a skill (tentacles or claw) he will become a player that cannot be ignored.
[/quote]
Plus a ST5 Frenzy Player is a horrible thread. Keeps the opponent out of the sidezones which helps you to break through at the sidelines.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:01 pm

Skaven and Pro Elves do play a remarkably similar game. But Skaven have the dual advantages of price and three players who get strength skills (and have and 8 AV.) Don't underestimate the power of Guard. It's one of the best skills in the game.

kithor2002 · Post by **kithor2002** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:09 pm

But if I have the choice between skaven and woodelves I would take the elves.
The elves have all AG4 whereas only up to 4 players have AG4 on a skaven team.So dodging is much easier.And the WD starts with Blodge and Leap and works well as a cagebreaker and I don't see anything like that on a Skaventeam.

And a WE team can win games when outnumbered where a Skaventeam will have much more trouble especially when there won't be a gutter runner on the pitch.

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 4:17 pm

Heh. A Wood Elf team has a hard time winning when their Wardancers aren't on the pitch, too. If you look at tourney stats, I'm pretty sure you'll find that Skaven do a lot better at the lower TR's than Wood Elves do - the combination of cheaper role players and more rerolls tends to work very well. His league lasts only 7 games or so, so I'd suggest the rats.

Dr. Doom · Post by **Dr. Doom** » Sun Jan 02, 2005 9:52 pm

I'll say one word:
50k Linerats.
These little suckers are dirtcheap, opposed to Linelfs. On the other hand, being able to score with virtually anybody is nice, too. All in all, Skaven run more and dish out more Cas, while Elves Pass more (and maybe score a tad more TD's, but just a tad).

Gremlin · Post by **Gremlin** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 12:08 am

i want to campare the Skaven Team to the ELF (PRO) Team
(no Wood, Dark or High Elves!!!)

Their Linemen:
cost 60k
ST3
AG4
AV7

Skaven Linemen:
cost 50k
ST3
AG3
AV7

Do u think the Skaven are better, just because they are 10k cheaper and ignore the lack of one point Agility???

TuernRedvenom · Post by **TuernRedvenom** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 7:01 am

Gremlin wrote:i want to campare the Skaven Team to the ELF (PRO) Team
(no Wood, Dark or High Elves!!!)

Their Linemen:
cost 60k
ST3
AG4
AV7

Skaven Linemen:
cost 50k
ST3
AG3
AV7

Do u think the Skaven are better, just because they are 10k cheaper and ignore the lack of one point Agility???

Neither is better, they are just different. Besides you forgot the skaven has 1 extra MA and access to mutations while the elf has access to agility skills. And 10k is a significant difference if you need to buy 6-7 of those guys.

Tim · Post by **Tim** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 9:05 am

If you compare Skaven vs. Pro Elf, you gotta look at the whole team:

Blitzers:
Stormvermins have STR and Mutation access and are way cheaper. Elf Blitzers have +1AG and AG access. I'd prefer the Stormvermin.

Catchers:
Gutterrunners are weaker (-1ST), but faster (+1MA), have access to mutations, are 20k cheaper than the Elf Catcher and start with dodge. On a starting team the Gutterrunners are way better, as developed players it's a VERY tough choice. ST3/MA8 is a awesome combo, but a developed Gutterrunner with the right mutations (for example a Oneturner with VLL or a Bighand/leap ball extraktor) can be great too.

Throwers:
Elf has AG4, while the Skaven thrower has AG3, a point more movement and Sure hands. Still AG4 on a thrower rocks, so i'd prefer the Elf this time.

Linemen:
Said above. MV7+Mutations+10k price advantage on the Skaven vs. AG4+Agility Access on the Linelfs. Again, on a starting team i'd prefer the Skaven for their speed and price advantage. On a developed team, the Skaven lineman can be more versatile due to their mutations, while the Elfs can get the better allround players with blodge.

So alltogether, the Skaven make the better starting team and are a little easier to play because of their speed and their price tag. Once you managed to get the Elfs to a higher TR without major losses of players (and thus cash), they'll be equally good.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Mon Jan 03, 2005 11:30 pm

IMO Gutter Runners are the best value players in the game.

Sure War Dancers or Bull Centaurs are better, but MA9 & AG4 make these guys scarily mobile.

You can also skill them up to fill a variety of roles.

1) One turn wonder: Very Long Legs, Sprint. Yawn

2) Blitzer: Dauntless & Horns (two doubles)

or Block & Strip Ball (2 dice opponent choice blocks aren't that risky if you've got a RR & block).
3) Defensive Back - pass block, catch etc
4) Marker - block, sidestep, diving tackle, shadowing (combine with Pass Block for real nastiness).

Where Skaven fall down is that their line rats are AG3 - so the dodge everyone away tactic doesn't work and therefore player turnover tends to be higher.