new trait: Toughness

[bo]

but i assume there were some "healing scrolls", "healing potions" & "magic sponges" to counter the threat, too??
(i've only played with 3rd edition deathzone playcards, i have no idea how 2nd ed was, but there had to be some remedies too, or else playing agility teams (in the long run) must have been next to impossible...)

the current lrb non-cumulative armor/injury modifiers are all nice, and i do like them to stay that way they are, but nowadays one apothecary is also all the healing you can get...
so maybe the "medical-support aspects" of the game could also use a boost, instead of just making the bashing AV9-teams even stronger. (who but them, in the end, would profit from a strength trait?- elves certainly won't get them.)

how about the wizards being able to actually heal one member of your team, or boost his armor, instead of killing your opponents players, or turnig them into frogs? (i realize maybe this should come into a "game development" section instead of the "house rules", but i just sort of became inspired by this thread... )

[harald]

Since noone ever takes spikes as a PA putting toughness as a strength trait should work well.

I am all for it since now Spikes is dead. I have never in my bloodbowl life dating back to 1st edition and the 80:ies witnessed Spikes in action.[/u]

[Skummy]

Nobody with physical access ever takes Thick Skull or Extra Arms either. Should we make those a strength skill as well?

I talked to Chet about the Toughness trait at Gumpta. He's actually playtesting it in his league, and nobody's taken it yet on a doubles roll. I really think that once people do start taking it, it's going to create some problems. A 10 AV is a really big upgrade over a 9, since you've just decreased the injury rate by 50% on a regular block. Being able to take spikes on a physical player wasn't generally all that big a deal, since you'd also be passing up Claw, RSC or FA.

Now, statistics can't tell you how something's going to impact the game on the field, but I look at it like this. Either "Toughness" is not as good as the rest of the general and strength traits out there and will never be taken, or it's better than Stand Firm or Dodge on strength players - meaning it's too good.

[Munkey]

A third possibility is that it's as good as SF or Dodge and would be taken sometimes depending on preference.

Long term I guess this could be a problem but the players that would become AV 10 usually develop slowly. Chaos Warriors would be the worst here I guess.

[Skummy]

A third possibility is that it's as good as SF or Dodge and would be taken sometimes depending on preference.

Long term I guess this could be a problem but the players that would become AV 10 usually develop slowly. Chaos Warriors would be the worst here I guess.

Very true - playtesting is the only way to go, I guess. Just make a note that if Chet says he's playtested it, he told me 3 weeks ago that nobody in his league had taken it.

I'm not at all worried about Chaos Warriors. They've had the ability to take Spikes for quite a while now, and it's not a very good path to use, considering their other options. But a Black Orc or a Bull Centaur isn't passing up the AV bonus for Claws or Foul Appearance - in short, I think it would be a very viable choice as a 2nd doubles roll on quite a few players. And all we know is that it should make the already durable players last that much longer...

[Munkey]

I'm not at all worried about Chaos Warriors. They've had the ability to take Spikes for quite a while now, and it's not a very good path to use, considering their other options.

Of course they have.

I think in a lot of cases the players that could take this and get AV10 are so slow developing that it is unlikely to actually be seen, but I do take your point that if they do they would be very hard to take out (and at that development speed unlikely to age for a while).

Playtesting would be needed to take this discussion any further IMO but at the speed these players develop it would be a pretty long term playtest.

[Skummy]

Agreed. The Bull Centaur might be the one to worry about most, IMO. Dodge is a very good doubles choice, but an AV increase may beat out Stand Firm as a second choice.

[Khaine]

A third possibility is that it's as good as SF or Dodge and would be taken sometimes depending on preference.

Long term I guess this could be a problem but the players that would become AV 10 usually develop slowly. Chaos Warriors would be the worst here I guess.

Very true - playtesting is the only way to go, I guess. Just make a note that if Chet says he's playtested it, he told me 3 weeks ago that nobody in his league had taken it.

I'm not at all worried about Chaos Warriors. They've had the ability to take Spikes for quite a while now, and it's not a very good path to use, considering their other options. But a Black Orc or a Bull Centaur isn't passing up the AV bonus for Claws or Foul Appearance - in short, I think it would be a very viable choice as a 2nd doubles roll on quite a few players. And all we know is that it should make the already durable players last that much longer...

I would be afraid of a 2 double roll AV 11 Chaos warrior. That is a player not going down likely. With Block and MB that would be a nasty player to get off the pitch. Probably not as good as a RSC MB CW but still an annoying player to be sure.

[DoubleSkulls]

I would be afraid of a 2 double roll AV 11 Chaos warrior. That is a player not going down likely. With Block and MB that would be a nasty player to get off the pitch. Probably not as good as a RSC MB CW but still an annoying player to be sure.

A dodge SF CW isn't going down much either...

[GalakStarscraper]

Either "Toughness" is not as good as the rest of the general and strength traits out there and will never be taken, or it's better than Stand Firm or Dodge on strength players - meaning it's too good.

How about taken more than Spikes but not more than Dodge and Stand Firm.

I've been testing Toughness as an ST trait in the MBBL2 and no has taken it there yet either although I know of a couple players that have said they would take it on their next doubles roll.

The MBBL2's Invunerable ST trait has been more popular so far. The skill removes all AV modifiers from AV rolls made against the player (including fouling assists and modifiers).

Oh and we moved Thick Skull to a Strength skill and Extra Arms to a Physical Skill ... but no takers on those yet either.

Galak

[Mirascael]

Either "Toughness" is not as good as the rest of the general and strength traits out there and will never be taken, or it's better than Stand Firm or Dodge on strength players - meaning it's too good.

How about taken more than Spikes but not more than Dodge and Stand Firm.

I've been testing Toughness as an ST trait in the MBBL2 and no has taken it there yet either although I know of a couple players that have said they would take it on their next doubles roll.

The MBBL2's Invunerable ST trait has been more popular so far. The skill removes all AV modifiers from AV rolls made against the player (including fouling assists and modifiers).

Oh and we moved Thick Skull to a Strength skill and Extra Arms to a Physical Skill ... but no takers on those yet either.

Galak

I'm all for allowing AV+1 on a skill roll of 9, with 10 as maximum AV. It's entirely different to getting a Magic Helmet for free. I'm certain that most coaches would pick an ordinary skill anyhow, nevertheless it would provide a bit more variety and might help AV 7 teams to stay competitive in a high TR-environment with basher teams and fixed schedules.

[Skummy]

I would be afraid of a 2 double roll AV 11 Chaos warrior. That is a player not going down likely. With Block and MB that would be a nasty player to get off the pitch. Probably not as good as a RSC MB CW but still an annoying player to be sure.[/quote]

Not possible. Armor caps at 10, and Spikes can only be taken once, just like you can only get very long legs once.

[Pardus]

you can't get a skill twice, so it would only ever be a av10 CW and if you don't include the av10 cap the best you could do is an av11 tree and like that's such a threat

[jordellfreshbreeze]

that would be scary

[bound for glory]

we use toughness in the twin river league too. -1 to injury roll. 12 is still a kill.