Skaven vs über-Khemri: how to survive?

[el sid]

I'm supposed to be working right now, but if Tuern can send in his match report, so can I!

Tuern's report is quite detailed & correct, so I don't have a lot of extra's to mention. Except for some Skaven-strategy oriented slow-motion re-plays.

I won the toss, so obviously opted for receiving the ball. I didn't put all my Skaven on one side, hoping for a quick score, as Tuern mentioned. At that time, I still planned to keep running from the Khemri, tossing the ball a bit up and down and gathering completions. So I distributed my rats symmetrically in my field. Ball was kicked, and in easy reach of my Thrower.

Next, one reason or another, my Skaven instinct kicked in: "Must... score..." I broke open the Khemri centre with some Linerats and a Storm Vermin and ran through a number of rats, including a couple of Gutter Runners. It was a spread-out, loose formation, not resembling a cage. Meanwhile, my Thrower grabbed the ball and waited in a safe position in my backfield.

Khemri turn limited itself to hugging some skellies and mummies against my rats.

Next turn, I dodged out my deepest Gutter Runner and positioned it in the End Zone. My Thrower ran up front, throwed a perfect Long Pass which was caught by my Gutter Runner. 1-0 in Turn 2.

Next drives of first half, my Skaven were able to survive the Khemri onslaught. I tried to do my best keeping a distance between my Rats and the Mummies. But with 4 Mummies and 2 ST4 Blitzers, there's always something dangerous in your neighbourhood.

Each drive however, I did send some Gutter Runners through the Khemri lines, running deep towards the ball. Tuern was unlucky in retreiving the ball with his AG2 players. This way, I was able to score two times during my opponent's receiving drive.

I think this was Tuern's main mistake: He should have focussed more on the lone Gutter Runners going deep. Instead, he was too focussed on causing mayhem with his blitzing Mummies on my main rat-pack. But I understand this logic. If you don't have Tackle, a Blodge target is not very inviting to throw your single blitz at.

During the second half, Tuern got a touch-back. Soon, his ST4 ball-carrier was surrounded by 2 Guard Mummies. As a Skaven coach, I decided against trying to break this cage.

In the end, I was lucky with the casualty rolls against my Rats. Except for one desastrous turn in which the Mummies killed two of my Linerats, none of my key players suffered any injury. On the other side, although I focussed quite some of my hitting power on AV7 skellies, I simply was not able to even break their armour.

Concluding, these are my main reflections:

- Against power teams, never concentrate your rats in small areas.
- Always send some Gutter Runners towards the ball if playing against low AG teams. If you're lucky they won't be able to pick up the ball.
- As a Skaven coach, always hope for a mistake from your opponent and take advantage of it! You've got the speed to do it.
- If the mistake doesn't come, don't force anything. Let your opponent score and wait for a new opportunity. If you're not unlucky, you can always score back in 2 turns.
- Never foul against foul-oriented teams. Let the ref throw them of the field!
- Concentrate your hitting power on the weak, low-AV players. Forget about taking out the Mummies. They're just too powerfull and though. Maybe you could re-think this strategy if playing with Orcs or Chaos, but the fragile Skaven should not have the ambition to terminate Mummies.
- Try to avoid leaving any rats in the tackle zones of Mummies, or even in their vicinity!
- This game I lost two rats, and I consider myself lucky. A Skaven team in a Khemri league would not last.


That's it. Thanks everybody for the interesting feedback!

[Craigtw]

El Sid,

A really interesting exercise in theory and practise! Thanks very much! I also really liked your obesrvation of waiting for opportunites and making sure that you are ready to capatalize on them.

Overall very entertaining and informative!



Craig

[TuernRedvenom]

I won the toss, so obviously opted for receiving the ball. I didn't put all my Skaven on one side, hoping for a quick score, as Tuern mentioned. At that time, I still planned to keep running from the Khemri, tossing the ball a bit up and down and gathering completions. So I distributed my rats symmetrically in my field. Ball was kicked, and in easy reach of my Thrower.

Next, one reason or another, my Skaven instinct kicked in: "Must... score..." I broke open the Khemri centre with some Linerats and a Storm Vermin and ran through a number of rats, including a couple of Gutter Runners. It was a spread-out, loose formation, not resembling a cage. Meanwhile, my Thrower grabbed the ball and waited in a safe position in my backfield.

Khemri turn limited itself to hugging some skellies and mummies against my rats.

Next turn, I dodged out my deepest Gutter Runner and positioned it in the End Zone. My Thrower ran up front, throwed a perfect Long Pass which was caught by my Gutter Runner. 1-0 in Turn 2.

Yes, you're right, I was thinking of the other match I played afterwards.

[Craigtw]

Yes, you're right, I was thinking of the other match I played afterwards.

How did that rat fare against your uber-Kemhri? Did he employ the same tactics?

[TuernRedvenom]

Yes, you're right, I was thinking of the other match I played afterwards.

How did that rat fare against your uber-Kemhri? Did he employ the same tactics?

Heh, he tried it slightly differently. He scored quickly, then tried everything in his power to stop me from scoring: including throwing linerats against my cage as fodder,throwing half-die blitzes at my ball carrier and so on. In the end it was a pretty tight game with him managing to steal the ball on a few occasions but me getting it back loose everytime. In the end his KO and injury box was nice and full and I had killed a freebooted star player, hit -1 STR on a gr and killed his ag5 gr which was sadly rescued by his apo. Oh yeah, I also won 1-2, scoring in turn 8 of every half.
Biggest difference here was that by now my blitzer had sure hands.

[JJB]

- If the mistake doesn't come, don't force anything. Let your opponent score and wait for a new opportunity. If you're not unlucky, you can always score back in 2 turns.

I disagree. Your opponent can play the stalling game to push for, say, a 1-0 victory or a draw. Or simply grind down your team to oblivion so that there won't any players for him to face when he kicks next drive.

One must maintain some form of pressure, one way or another, to make sure the opponent does not score after 8 turns, unless of course one already has a clear advantage in terms of TDs scored.

[Craigtw]

JJB,

I don't think that El Sid meant to suggest that he would just sit back and watch - at least that was not my take on it. I think what he was saying was that he was not going to pit waves of clanrats against a mummy based cage. (Kinda like throwing eggs against a wall)!

I read it to mean that there was some pressure - I mean there obviously was if he was still scoring when the khemri were having trouble picking up the ball!

But point well taken. Apply pressure - and wait for something to leak!

Craig

[el sid]

JJB,

You're absolutely right. As a Skaven coach, you should always apply some pressure on your opponent. That's why I sent my Gutter Runners deep, anticipating on a failed grabbing of the ball.

In my opinion, this is what makes Skaven thrive. They lack the overall AG4 from the Elves, but their speed and the fantastic Gutter Runners allow for punishment of any mistake on ball handling by the opposition.

This is what happened during the first half of my game vs. Tuern. His Khemri not being able to pick up the ball, my Gutter Runners came in, supported by some Linerats, blitzed a tackle zone away and went for the score.

During the second half happened what JJB described. This time, the Khemri were able to get hold of the ball. I was not able to scramble the (ST4) ball carrier before it went inside a Mummy-cornered cage. The cage slowly went towards the end zone, scoring in Turn 8.

This is where I could use some suggestions. How would you try to get hold of the ball in this situation? If you're up against a ST3 cage, you can make a frontal blitz on the cage, disrupting its formation and scattering your rats around the cage to limit assistance-lending activity on the front by your opponent. The blitz could be performed by a Rat Ogre, or maybe even better, 2 guarding Storm Vermin on the corners and a LineRat.

Using this tactic, you actively break the cage. But this strategy doesn't work with Khemri. Having multiple ST5 players, they will always gain the upper-hand in a situation described as above.

So JJB, I think you're correct. Normally I apply this pressure on average ST3 cages. But if you have any ideas on how to take on the Khemri-version of it, I would be very interested.

As a final note, I like what Craig said. Taking on a cage with Skaven really depends on how many TD's were already scored during the game. If I'm in a comfortable lead, I will ignore the cage, letting some rats hoover around it without taking too much risks. But I will start hunting for the players not involved in the cage, as I should have an advantage in numbers.

[Craigtw]

In either the 2001 or 2002 Annual there is an article on halfling tactics. In that the author dicusses how halflings can be employed to break cages .

With S3 players trying to break a cage of mummies, I would imagine that it is much the same kind of effort. Unfortunately I do not remember what is said off hand, but do recall there being something about taking on the cage at the back, not the front, thereby disrupting it's forward momentum, while keeping enough players in the front to make them have to blitz as they move, and move slowly at that. (But do Khemri do it any other way?)

Give the article a read, I think it will help. If you cannot getr your hands on it - then LMK and I will dig it out.



Craig

[JJB]

JJB,

You're absolutely right. As a Skaven coach, you should always apply some pressure on your opponent. That's why I sent my Gutter Runners deep, anticipating on a failed grabbing of the ball.
[...]
Normally I apply this pressure on average ST3 cages. But if you have any ideas on how to take on the Khemri-version of it, I would be very interested.

I would deal with that situation as follows:
1- If you have plenty of players, stick 3 players to one of the mummies that form the cage as assists and block that mummy at 2db (you will have to block with a player who will be in contact with a second mummy whose defensive assistance will have to be countered with 2 more players so that it will only be able to hit you back at 1db, or 1/2 dice if you put one more player as defense.).

2- If you lack players, you will have to put yourself even more at risk by following the above strategy, but only to block the mummy at 1db...

[el sid]

Hi JJB,

I'm afraid on the field things are a bit different. Your description would work, if the cage and its ball-carrier would be the only five players of the opposition on the turf. Sadly, he has eleven. So six more skellies and Blitz-ra's are humming around this cage. Making it very difficult (in most cases: impossible) to lend enough assists to your ST3 players to get a decent chance of taking the Mummy down.

Second, after a while most Mummies get Guard. So no more taking out defensive assists on their brethern.

Third, this strategy asks an awfully lot of your fragile rats. Putting all these Skaven in a small area in such close vicinity of Mummies and other nasties. This could really hurt, a lot.

Finally, even if you manage to take down the Mummie (with a blitz, because if you're guy was standing next to it in your opponents time, your rat would have been reduced to yoghurt), what would be your next move? Following up, so you're next to the ST4 ball-carrier, surrounded by the 3 other Mummies which are pissed off because you took down one of their mates? Now it's their turn to hit back, with all your rats being in a tight spot.

As a conclusion: In theory it is possible to take down one Mummy and break one corner of the cage. But this doesn't mean the cage is broken! And you're into a lot of trouble, with all your rats being compromised having to lend offensive assisits.

Skaven are not meant to break Khemri (or other high ST) cages. I'm willing to accept this, because they excell at other disciplines.

When kicking, your rats either have to get to the ball before your opponent does, or have to scramble the ball-carrier before it's tucked in in a cage. If you don't succeed at this, try to cause some mayhem on the opposing players not contributing to the cage. And let the cage roll towards your end-zone, anticipating for a quick counter-TD after they scored. And maybe you're more lucky scrambling their ball-carrier next kick-off?

El Sid

[JJB]

I completely agree with your points el sid and what I described here as very theoritical. At the end of the day, that stuff is only if you really want to get aggressive.
What I'll add is:
- that tactic is helped if you managed to keep the opponents' players spread, so that there are no, or as few as possible, opposing players gravitating around the cage. Of course, it's easier said than done.
- a dirty player comes in handy to foul off the mummy that you will have, if all goes well (i.e. it may not go well either...), knocked down.

Again, that tactic is overall costly - but hey, that's Khemri we're talking about after all!!

[amadoris]

kill the throwers (use dp, or claw or fangs), sacrifice the ratogre and some rookie lineman. sure, you'll survive. Remember also to make 2 dice against against mummies and blitzer. sometimes you'll go down, sometimes they'll go down. Better crush than be crushed