human catchers...st 2

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 10:34 pm

Yeah, Elves have agility, humans have strength access and a big guy. And their lineman are cheap.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » Sun Feb 27, 2005 11:56 pm

well, sorry, but since the Ogre is not human, that doesn't hold.

gken1 · Post by **gken1** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 1:53 am

Gus wrote:well, sorry, but since the Ogre is not human, that doesn't hold.

but the ogre is part of the team

Skummy · Post by **Skummy** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:16 am

Gus wrote:well, sorry, but since the Ogre is not human, that doesn't hold.

What doesn't hold, exactly? I'm not sure what you are commenting on here.

Bizzy · Post by **Bizzy** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 2:20 am

Humans have different branches.

Norse
Amazon
Human

All players except the Human catcher is ST3. Humans are ST3 and thats that. A human is not as strong as a Bestigor, Flesh Golem, Black Orc, Bull Centaur, and all other ST4 people. A human isn't as weak as a halfling, goblin, gutter runner, or wood elf catcher. Humans can however can be fragile and be sturdy. Elves with stock AG 4 have a huge running room to grow and become stocked and nasty. Bashy boys have the AV and ST access to become stronger.

Humans aren't going to be AG4, they aren't going to be ST4. This is just unnatural to start out with for them. Obviously getting a stat increase in the league is possible but thats another story.

By having humans start out with no special stats as MA9, AG4, or ST4 they need to compensate in other areas. How can they do this? By starting out with skills other teams have to earn. This gives them the competitive edge at the begining of a league so they can grow into a powerhouse like the Orcs, and Elves.

What can be done with that?

Thrower is considered good comes with pass sure hands. Thats good.

Lineman starts out with nothing have access to general, and thats it. They are meh nothing to special but good MA and AV make up for what they lack.

Blitzer has good MA, normal ST, normal AG, good AV. Come stocked with block and have ST access. That makes them able to take something other then block first making them a good player.

Catcher has good MA, low unnatural ST, normal AG, and eh armor. Comes with dodge giving them some advantage.

Now you read this and say great job Bizzy you pointed out what we know already.

But look at the facts here. Humans have average Stats (which I agree upon with the acception of the catcher). If you think about tournaments.

Every team has a player that comes with block. Some more then others. WHen you combine this with the superior stats of a elf, or an orc then you have a weak human line up.

They need help to become better at playing to a teams weakness.
Harder hitting then a Skaven team that can roll claws on Storm Vermin and Rat Ogres. Even linemen.

Faster then Orcs and Dwarves so they dont get horribly murdered.

If anyone thinks that they can do something to add to the human team's goodness while not changeing the fluff of a human player then GO FOR IT.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:27 am

I would agree that the human team is marginally weaker than most of the other 1st tier teams. Only Elf & Chaos have performed worse at tournaments
HE & DE both perform better and there have been long threads about how we make tournaments better for them.

Now I'd say that was surprising because on paper I expect humans (with good starting skills and relatively cheap team) to be able to perform quite well at low TRs that tournaments emphasise.

Meanwhile on FUMBBL they aren't great performers either, with only Chaos having a higher losses as % of games.

So maybe humans need a tiny bump to make them better. I don't believe that bump is making catchers S3 in any case as that is a far more radical reworking of the team.

Bizzy · Post by **Bizzy** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 3:53 am

Well looking at things a catcher on a Human team does. It gets dodge and sidestep. Thats not great. It has ST2, AV7. Give the ball to your blitzer with 1 less movement but better ST and AV. Harder to get down. A catcher doesn't add much assistence to the team as is IMO

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:00 am

Bizzy wrote:Well looking at things a catcher on a Human team does. It gets dodge and sidestep. Thats not great. It has ST2, AV7. Give the ball to your blitzer with 1 less movement but better ST and AV. Harder to get down. A catcher doesn't add much assistence to the team as is IMO

Then I'd argue you aren't using them optimally.

In a human team I think you ought to develop them as annoying players.

Block & Sidestep first. Back it up with combos around shadowing (MA8 is useful for something), diving tackle and pass block to give you defence against agile teams.

On doubles I'll normally give them Dauntless followed by Strip Ball to make them "light" blitzers. MA8 & dodge makes them a bit more mobile than the blitzers.

The game is often won on defence - so tooling them up for offence (Nerves of Steel, Sprint, Sure Feet, Diving Catch etc) isn't such a great plan IMO - although as you have 4 there is plenty of scope to develop the last one that way.

In turn that frees up your blitzers to really work the bashing game - Guard, Mighty Blow etc, rather than being genuine blitzer types (Tackle, Strip Ball etc) giving you an edge against the flair teams because you genuinely can out bash them too.

Longshot · Post by **Longshot** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:57 am

Let the humans as they are!

The big strengh of Humans is that they dont have weakness.

The are surely hard to play Well. But i remember how Longfang played them at the begining of the tournies and it was very great to see (third place at Spiky 1).

I start to play them myself, it is very different from Strong team or AG team but they are not weak at all.

The catcher are very powerfull in this team. AG 3 dodge, you can put assist where you want 1/9 chance do fail the dodge. And Catch of course.
4 blitzers with block. Throwers with Pass, sure hands...

Their big strengh is surely to have the needed skills and RR for some 3+ dodges or block...

No need to chance them imo

Gus · Post by **Gus** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:03 pm

gken1 wrote:
Gus wrote:well, sorry, but since the Ogre is not human, that doesn't hold.
but the ogre is part of the team

well, yeah, great, and ?
i mean, i was speaking about how i viewed the human team as the usual "standard"-team. in a "standard human" team, you shouldn't have a big stupid unskilled bully (that's the Ogre).
so i'm saying i'd like the Ogre to go away. of course, they'd need tweaking to make up for that.

but anyway, the point was: Ogres are not human. they should not have a place in the human team.

and catchers are good, hopefully, with doubleskulls saying it, people will tend to agree more than if it's just me

Pipey · Post by **Pipey** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 4:13 pm

I can't agree that Humans are OK as they are. Especially when your evidence to the contrary is one person coming 3rd once - some years ago...

AFAIK Humans only every won a tournie when you could take Griff.

OK so maybe we leave catchers as they are.

How about two simple changes which would help Humans quite significantly:
1. change RRs to 40k
2. make biltzers 80k

This would allow Humans to take a range of positional players, and plenty of RRs - improving them c.f. the other teams. And I always thought that the Orc Blitzer80k/Human biltzer90k comparison was a bit of an unfair one.

Now I know you would then have a slight problem given that Storm Vermin are indentical to Human Blitzers but now cost 10k more. But it's the team context that counts - hard to argue skaven need any help.

E.g. 1 million tournament human team under these proposed changes:
4 Blitzers 320
2 Catchers 140
2 Throwers 140
Ogre 120
3 Linemen 150
3 RRs 120
1 FF 10

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 5:37 pm

Bizzy wrote:A human is not as strong as a Bestigor, Flesh Golem, Black Orc, Bull Centaur, and all other ST4 people. A human isn't as weak as a halfling, goblin, gutter runner, or wood elf catcher.

See, I don't get that. Why are "humans not as weak as WE cathcers"? Where do you get that info from? The fluff? Well, the fluff says the human catchers are. The bad, old days when BB was tied to WFB? Then in that case the WE catchers should be ST3 as well, as no Elf was weaker than a human.

Bizzy wrote:Humans are ST3 and thats that.

A remark that could just as easily be aimed at Elves.

gken1 · Post by **gken1** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 7:03 pm

Gus wrote: well, yeah, great, and ?
i mean, i was speaking about how i viewed the human team as the usual "standard"-team. in a "standard human" team, you shouldn't have a big stupid unskilled bully (that's the Ogre).
so i'm saying i'd like the Ogre to go away. of course, they'd need tweaking to make up for that.

but anyway, the point was: Ogres are not human. they should not have a place in the human team.

and catchers are good, hopefully, with doubleskulls saying it, people will tend to agree more than if it's just me

That's silly and off topic. if you want to start a new thread where human teams don't have ogres go ahead. But for this thread the human team has an ogre.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 7:43 pm

i'm sorry, but you can stick this "silly" remark up wherever you want =)
as for this being off-topic: bite me.

now that we passed the uncivilities, i stand with all my remarks made in regards to the subject. it is about tweaking the catcher, and evolved towards tweaking the whole team (since tweaking a lone player is hardly possible anyway), hence my proposition.

i must add that by posting junk posts as you did, you actually increased the amount of "off-topic" posts.

Bizzy · Post by **Bizzy** » Mon Feb 28, 2005 8:00 pm

ian you made a lot of good points.

Well Darkson I am not getting my information from any source or fluff. Just when tehre is a ST2 AV7 guy that is annoying shadower, pass blocker and wants to score you send your block tackle mighty blow guy over and teach that catcher a lesson. Think in terms of the Humans playing a all around good team. Example being Necros, or Undead.

Send a Wight after that catcher and its toast. Send a werewolf after them and they have even more problems then before. It is just I think if they had ST3 not AV8. They would be too jacked of a player with both. With the ST3 it makes them harder to take down so they can use the annoying skills that they have.