Bretonnian Team. Final Tweaks.

[plasmoid]

Hi all,
just wanted to say that I'll be using the team in the first post, but with 6337 loner (30K) peasants for a little bit of vault playtest over the summer.
I very much respect the opnion of the coaches that I'll be playing with, so it'll be interesting to hear what they have to say.

Feel free to take a test-game yourself
Cheers
Martin

[McDeth]

That seems mighty cheap to me, some serious DP fodder at 30k a piece.

You could virtually set up an awesome starting team with thes ejust fouling there way through 100Tr Teams. Imagine just buying 10 of these at 30k a piece then filling out with 4 0r 5 positionals

[plasmoid]

Hi McDeth,
I don't see that as a new (or particularly viable) tactic.
First off, 4-5 reliable (but not ST4 or AG4) position players shouldn't be able to dominate an opposing team.

Secondly, having overpriced evrything else, I think that it would be very harsh to overprice the peasants too.

Thirdly, Khemri, Necro and Undead can all field a team with a few good players and 10 30K linemen. Linemen who can even come back if you manage to break some of them.
I don't see why this is more powerful on a Bretonnia team than on the undead teams.

Also, please note that they don't start with dirty player, and will have a harder time than other AG3 linemen getting their 1st skill roll.
And if the opponent doesn't foul back, I'm gessing that the army of foulers will be disappearing faster than its victims. Or, even worse, if you foul every turn, then you can be sure that your precious positionals will get the same treatment.
If you have the time and energy, I'd be perfectly happy for you to try this tactic against a mate. Tell me how it went, it might swing my opinion. I don't have any personal experience with such an approach.

Cheers
Martin

PS - would you prefer a line-up with 40K linemen and cheaper rerolls?
What bothers me about pricing them at 40K is that they would be slapped with loner for free, and loner is something that will be messing up plays for the team whether developed or brand new.

[atropabelladonna]

Hi all,
just wanted to say that I'll be using the team in the first post, but with 6337 loner (30K) peasants for a little bit of vault playtest over the summer.
I very much respect the opnion of the coaches that I'll be playing with, so it'll be interesting to hear what they have to say.

Feel free to take a test-game yourself
Cheers
Martin

I also think its too cheap. I would die to have these linemen. It would be better to keep that at 2 AG I think. Loner is not much of a penalty when they hardly perform any duties other than being road blocks and front line fodder.

[plasmoid]

Hi Atropa and McDeth,
I've thought about it, and the 6337 loner peasants probably are better than the 6327 ones.
Still, they are worse than a standard 6337 lineman.

I'm not sure I'm 100% happy with making them better.
Still, 6337 is a clearly human stat, and they will have a liability that sticks with 'em even on a developed team.

So - I guess I'm caving.
The linemen will be 40K, but I'm knocking 10K off the rerolls.
I mean everything on this team is max-priced - which wouldn't be so bad if it wasn't for the fact that all other teams get discounts.

See, I did it. Happy?

Now, somebody needs to explain to me why 30K linemen was broken on this team, but not on the undead, Khemri or necro team!

Cheers
Martin

[Jeroen]

I'm really happy with the time and effort you put into this but hurry up i want to build a nice bretonnian team!

[browwnrob]

would that roster ever have a shot at being official, im hoping so!

Id love the slann and snotling rosters to be made official too. I like the roster Plasmoid, your hard work has paid off

[Dark Lord (retired)]

Don't like the passing on a Brett team.

Should have no thrower position or if one absolutely needed the peasant position should have Passing Skill access only. (no Gen access) Then there should be only be one or two knight positions.

[Joemanji]

Basically, I wanted Bretonnians into BB. I know that the warhammer world isn't the BB world, but we can still draw inspiration from it. The Bretonnians are one of the major players in the warhammer world, and if we can have an amazon and a norse team in addition to the human team, then we can certainly have Bretonnians too.

The original team was created around '97, and since then it has been through tons of playtest, lots and lots of online discussion - meaning lots and lots of changes. The final result is this:

Code: Select all

***The Bretonnian Team*********************************************** 
The royal court-leagues of bretonnia employ some of the best players 
that mankind has to offer. With strong hands and steady nerves, the 
brave knights of bretonnia quest for the 'other' grail - the blood 
bowl trophy. 

# gc title stats access skills 
0-2 120K Knight of the Line  6339 GS block, dauntless, juggernaut
0-2 110K Knight of the Field    7338 GS block, catch 
0-2  70K Squire of the Line    6338 GS guard 
0-2  60K Squire of the Field  6337 GP Sure Hands 
0-12 40K Peasants                6337 G Loner

ReRolls 60K. Apothecary and Wizard as normal. No Big Guy. 
(Juggernaut is a skill from the vault: A player with this skill may treat
both down as a push back (and cancels stand firm) when blitzing. If you
are not playing in a vault league, you could house rule Juggernaut in as a
racial characteristic, so it isn't available to any other teams.)
********************************************************************** 

I don't like this team for the following reasons:
i) I don't see any need for a Bretonnian team. There is a Human roster that covers this prospect quite nicely. The WFB fluff is an excuse for modelling and conversion opportunities, not a new team.
ii) "a few super players ... and lots of cr*p players. A team with the best and the worst." This completely goes against the ethos of Humans in all of GW's games. The classic Human roster is the quintissential team, in that it is all about equality and working as one coherent unit, not relying on a few uber-positionals.
iii) Knights, playing BB. I thought we were moving away from a literal WFB background? I could see a Bretonnian team as a possible opportunity for a running style Human team, but this is just a literal translation of the army list.
iv) a 120K human player?!? Overdescription, sets a precedence.
v) Knight of the Field - a blizter and a catcher?!? Overdescription, sets a precedence.
vi) A player that starts with Guard. Sets a precedence.
vii) The team seems to have compensation for any weaknessess built in. I.e. no AG access or recievers; let the blitzers have Catch!
ix) Squires, playing BB. Ugh. This stretches the WFB direct translation so far it breaks. Badly. Why would squires play BB?!? They are essentially grooms and servants.

In short, I just don't like the team. This is my opinion, and I am registering it. If any attempt had been made to ground the team in BB fluff, I might think differently but it hasn't, so...

[/rant]

[plasmoid]

Hi Nazgit,
Duly noted.

my short answer to your points would be:
1) Yet we have norse and amazon.
2) but this isn't the quintessential human team. IF adding a new team, then I prefer it to not be a rerun of an old team.
Also, please note that they are über/cr*p within the boundaries of human stats. I think it reflects the Bretonnian national character.
3) Literal translation of the army list? How? Because it has knights, squires and peasants? AFAIK, of the 3, only knights are in the army.
4) Yet a 3 skill human has been done before.
5) The norse catcher has catch and block too.
6) No previously unused skills are allowed on any new team?
7) Somehow it still manages to lose games.
8 ) My picture is that squires could do many things beyond hairdressing, given the proper training - and desires of his liege.

I've made many changes to the roster to suit the tast of commentators. But I know I can't please everyone, and I guess I won't be pleasing you.
At least, others feel differently about the roster.
Heck, I've even had playtest from someone I didn't know. How often does that happen to a homebrew roster

Cheers anyway
And thanks for helping me make this a better team, even if you didn't like the end result.
Martin

[Joemanji]

In response to 3): Knights, squires and peasants are all in the army list IIRC. Maybe not peasants in that name, since the men-at-arms are essentially soldiers drawn from peasant stock. In fact, all units in that army are either knights, squires or men-at-arms (militia). That is how I have drawn the comparison from your team to the WFB army I suppose; both have a three-tier construction. Now I suppose I am thinking more of the last but one WFB list, as I have only flicked through the most recent version. But you took your inspirations from the previous versions too, right? You must have done if you started this team in 1997.

I won't hijack your thread with anymore comments, but feel free to PM if you want to respond.

Cheers
Joe

[plasmoid]

Hi Nazgit,
I think we can keep it brief here

Yes I was inspired by an army way back when, since it was pretty much the only available Bretonnia fluff. But I think that saying that the team is 3-tiered is the same as being an army-copy is pushing it.

Also, you said:
>This completely goes against the ethos of Humans in all of GW's games.

I think that this is blatantly untrue.
In many GW games, (40K, Mordheim, Necromunda) humans are more than one thing. Most notably, in WFB, Bretonnians are the not a coherent mass, but crack-elite and fillers.
And Bretonnians are what I'm trying to portray
(You may say that thats their army, but I see it as part of their very culture: A strict hierarchy).

To sum up, over time I've made many changes I thought would appeal to you.
Knights no longer have military titles. They're just BB-trained nobles.
Peasants are now 40K. And don't have AG2.
All Knights have G,ST. They are blitzer types, with 1 or 2 extra skills respectively.

Cheers
Martin

[Joemanji]

To sum up, over time I've made many changes I thought would appeal to you.
Knights no longer have military titles. They're just BB-trained nobles.
Peasants are now 40K. And don't have AG2.
All Knights have G,ST. They are blitzer types, with 1 or 2 extra skills respectively.

Yep, and I'll admit that the current list is better than some of the earlier ones, at least from my own perspective.

[plasmoid]

Hi Nazgit,
well - thats something
I forgot to mention that multiblock has gone too.

So, I think I've come as close to you as I can, without giving up my basic vision for the team: the hierarchic structure, and a close connection between knights and squires.

Cheers
Martin

[plasmoid]

Hi DL,
thanks for your feedback.

>Then there should be only be one or two knight positions.
Well, there are only 2 knight positions.
But I guess you meant "and no squires".
Like I just said to Nazgit, knights and their squires was one of my basic visions of the team. I think it adds style. It is quite possible to make a Bret team without them, but that was my visison.

>Don't like the passing on a Brett team.
>Should have no thrower position or if one absolutely needed the peasant
>position should have Passing Skill access only. (no Gen access).

We've had this discussion in the past, and settled on PA.
Basically, there was a discussion about the "fetcher" squires (squire of the field), whether they should be PA or AG. It ended up with PA, I think because that way they would actually deliver the ball to their leiges, rather than running with it themselves.
Personally, I could have gone either way. But I won't be reversing.

As an aside, very recently on an online thread, MattChaos said that as a professional human team, the team must have PA access. So there are different opinions about that.

Cheers
Martin