Vampire teams: too powerful?

Manic D · Post by **Manic D** » Sun Aug 07, 2005 7:33 am

Okay so I just played two games using a Vampire team (4 Vamps, 10 Thralls, 2 RRs, 2 FF) against a Dwarf team and an Orc team. The first game was a 3-0 solid victory for the Vamps and the second was a 1-0 win for the Vamps. In both games I (the Vamps) was in control of the game the entire time. Even at times when I was outnumbered on the field by 2-3 players I was dominant. It seemed to me (and the opposing coach) that the Vampires' Bloodlust hindrance did not effectively balance out their considerable strengths (ST 4, AG 4 and Hypnotic Gaze).

The first game was just a runaway. The dwarfs were continuously on their heels trying to keep my Vamps off their side of the field and could not hope to contain all of them and advance the ball. My team basically ran wild using superior MA and AG to weave between tackle zones and reach the ball carrier.

The second game was closer. That having been said the Orcs did all they could possibly do to protect the ball carrier and barely hung on while I was at a 2-man disadvantage. The game culminated with my Vamps attempting to surround the ball carrier and use Hypnotic Gaze on him thus preventing him from passing the ball for the tying score.

It seems to me that with 6 Vamps on the field other teams would really be on their heels. Has anyone else had problems with Vampire teams? Does the Hypnotic Gaze ability seem too powerful to you? To me it's like allowing every Vampire to move and attack except worse; Hypnotic Gaze paralyzes the player preventing him from dispatching the ball to other teammates. A block action may scatter the ball, Hypnotic Gaze does not. It's the perfect defensive containment weapon. I see that in the letter of the rules Hypnotic Gaze does not prevent a player from handing off the ball, is this right? It would have to be otherwise HG would be far too powerful, basically rendering any team's offense helpless. It seems bad enough as is. Got a great star player? Not if I post up a Vampire next to him and keep using HG to neutralize him.

In conclusion I'd just like your thoughts and experiences playing with and against Vampire teams. I know 2 games isn't a huge list to discern a pattern from, but I can see one developing nonetheless.

Post by **Thadrin** » Sun Aug 07, 2005 7:40 am

Doesn't sound like the Vamps I played...
Are you using the new versionof Hypno Gaze (may only be used as part of a move action)?
The Vampire team has no skills, so those rerolls should burn quickly, not to mention that with 4 Vamps you should be short on thralls on field pretty quick.

Redfang · Post by **Redfang** » Sun Aug 07, 2005 7:51 am

I don't think Hypnotic Gaze still works in the non-vamp turn while you guys seem to have played it so... Hypnotic Gaze only works until the end of the vampire turn, and it may fail (Ag roll required!)

Furthermore, how well did you roll for Bloodlust? With 4 vamps you should have missed (if they all took an action each turn) 10-11 rolls! Each off those should have resulted in a stunned thrall or worse!!!

Manic D · Post by **Manic D** » Sun Aug 07, 2005 7:59 am

Of course Hypno Gaze works on the opposing turn. It has to. How else would it prevent a player from passing/moving etc.? Players don't typically take those kinds of actions on the opposing team's turn. And about the moving and using HG thing...how is that a disadvantage? Okay so I have to move then use it. Alright so I can't stay in the same place using it coninuously but if I've got 6 Vamps they can take turns! And yeah, I failed my fare share of Bloodlust rolls but that really didn't account for much. I just used thralls as mobile tackle zones to tie up opposing players anyway. The ST 4, AG 4 badasses roaming the field are the real threat!

Manic D · Post by **Manic D** » Sun Aug 07, 2005 8:02 am

Ah. I rather like the old version (LRB 2.0) of HG better...it only eliminated tackle zones. This is prior to Vampire teams though. The new version of HG seems cheesy to me. Perhaps I'm missing something here (but I doubt it). Read the LRB 4.0 HG description. Why would it rule out assisting blocks and passing and such if it only worked on my turn and not the opponent's?

TuernRedvenom · Post by **TuernRedvenom** » Sun Aug 07, 2005 8:13 am

Manic D wrote:Of course Hypno Gaze works on the opposing turn. It has to. How else would it prevent a player from passing/moving etc.?

By knocking those players on their ass and at least stunning them. That's not how hypno gaze works. That would be extremely unbalancing.

Emberbreeze · Post by **Emberbreeze** » Sun Aug 07, 2005 8:32 am

The passing/moving part in the HG rules is to stop people using pass block, dumpoff etc

HG ends when the vampire turn ends and the player can take an action as normal in his turn.

So if you HG someone they can block you back in thier turn, as you have to finish your movement to HG and they wake up after the end of your turn.

Also with 4 vamps you should have failed 10-11 bloodlust rolls and caused 1-2 casulties a game (on average) on your own players!!! I would never field more than 3 vampires unless I have 5+ rerolls and or pro

Vampires in no way shape or form are over powered

edit: and you don't 'have' to move to HG someone. A move action doesn't mean you have to move as I understand it. But you still have to roll for bloodlust

Manic D · Post by **Manic D** » Sun Aug 07, 2005 8:47 am

Alrighty then. Thanks for the clarification. That should balance things out a little better...

Tritex · Post by **Tritex** » Sun Aug 07, 2005 9:18 am

Manic D wrote:Alrighty then. Thanks for the clarification. That should balance things out a little better...

Agreed - your way was far in excess of what a vamp team is supposed to be capable of. Perhaps you can pretend you were playing with Vampire lords but not they have spawned a new generation of weaker vampires that are not superhuman!

Having just played a Vamp team with my Amazons and killed 2 and BH the other Vampire....(Ok I was using Buffy the vampire slayer..AKA Zara) I am suitably happy to be on the side of the living!!

Redfang · Post by **Redfang** » Sun Aug 07, 2005 9:32 am

Also, remember that when you fail bloodlust and bite a thrall as a consequence, you roll for injury right away; you don't roll for armour first.

racing_max · Post by **racing_max** » Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:41 am

where can i find that HG only is in the vampire players turn?

i tought that when i move against a vampire that he can make a HG

Manic D · Post by **Manic D** » Sun Aug 07, 2005 10:57 am

Well since you can only make a HG after a move action (and that could only take place on your turn) you'd have to do it on your turn.

And yeah, you roll straight armor pen vs. Thralls. But they're scrubs. 40K each? Bite all you want, we'll hire more.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » Sun Aug 07, 2005 11:34 am

well, 2 thralls down per game costs 80k. i dunno how you calculate winnings, but with the FF2 you seem to have, i don't see how you can replace them on a regular basis.

your team might win a couple of games in the beginning if you are lucky on the Bloodlust rolls, but 2RR in the long term is suicidal. also, if i may suggest, your opponent were probably rather poor players compared to you, which may be why it seemed so easy. honestly, while the Vamp team can be fairly decent once it is developped, it is nowhere near a powerhouse.

Redfang · Post by **Redfang** » Sun Aug 07, 2005 11:49 am

Manic D wrote:Well since you can only make a HG after a move action (and that could only take place on your turn) you'd have to do it on your turn.

And yeah, you roll straight armor pen vs. Thralls. But they're scrubs. 40K each? Bite all you want, we'll hire more.

Are you telling me you roll armour and then perhaps injury for bitten thralls?

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Sun Aug 07, 2005 2:26 pm

Redfang wrote:
Manic D wrote:Well since you can only make a HG after a move action (and that could only take place on your turn) you'd have to do it on your turn.

And yeah, you roll straight armor pen vs. Thralls. But they're scrubs. 40K each? Bite all you want, we'll hire more.
Are you telling me you roll armour and then perhaps injury for bitten thralls?

armour pen = armour penetration = injury roll. So I think he's doing this correct.

Galak