some discussion on Vamps

[Cooper]

Cool, someone disagrees
snipped from the "first skills to chose sticky"

Vampire:

Vampires: develop them very differently i would say.

first: Block, pro, tackle, mighty blow Double: Frenzy, make into killer
second: block, pro, surehands? make into passer
third: pro, make into scorer?

I disagree somewhat where your Vamps are concerned. The Thralls I agree with, they're pretty much fodder. You just want Block on them to keep them standing longer and then linemen skills.

But Vamps I think all want to go:
Block, Dodge as their first two skills.
Doubles: Stand Firm (saves more rerolls), Jump Up

From there specialisation can occur. It depends on the rolls, if I get +1 MA I move into getting Sprint and Sure Feet to create a runner or MB, Strip Ball and Frenzy (on doubles) to create a Blitzer.

Don't bother with Tackle, let the Thralls do the Catcher hunting. They're more reliable at it. I'm not sold on Leap either, often correct Hypnotic Gazing removes the need to Leap.

Some people like Pro, personally I don't mind it on one or two of my vamps once they're set up. But not every one as Pro is a little too unreliable.

Ok, i deleted the parts about Thralls, since i can totally live with you suggestions.

Your suggestion of first giving Blodge to all Vampires is the main difference in our approach i think. That, and the fact that you dont give pro very soon.

I think you can never really go wrong with giving blodge to players, but if you start with that your first specialization will start when your vampires reach 31 spp. I think that is way too late to start specializing. If you want to specialize that is. Because with everyone being able to do everything you will do ok as well, especially in the start (say 120-150 TR) But after that, when you meet teams that are specialized at something you need to be able to counter that.

I am not very sure myself how to do it, but i think just being a bit good at everything will not get you out of trouble against Teams that beat the crap out of you. (your play-elf skill isnt good enough to stay out of reach and score fast, and your hitting-and-survival skills arent enough for closecombat).

It won't get you out of trouble against Elf teams either (your hitting skills arent enough to make the difference, (remove enough of tehm) and your passes can be intercepted, or your "catchers" will be stripped the ball from.


And about the pro-issue. I am pretty sure that when running 3 or 4 vampires on your field you will roll more then one "1" per turn. This will start hurting soon. I usually use my TRR first on the thirst roll of my important actions. But important actions cab go wrong after the thirst roll too, pro helps out there as well. It helped me numerous times. Remember that Pro is about as good as block in getting someone down.
But perhaps it is just my playing style, i want to get as close to 100% certainty as possible before being able to do strange stuff.

W

[MickeX]

I always go Blodge, because it gives me lots of options both on offence and defence. I need all vamps (I use few) to be able to take down a ballcarrier or hold the ball with just one or two thralls as a screen. Blodge keeps them alive (well...) and on their feet.

[fen]

I've found that taking pro in the first one or two skills is problematic, the vamps stat line is so flexible that they can ignore a lot of skills and make do. I do think that some vampires should have pro, having a couple with pro allows you to risk playing more than 3 - 4 vamps on the pitch at once (which in my league I've found I have to do if the game runs to extra time.)

My throwers are always short range passes or the occasional emergancy Hail Mary, so I don't want a vampire doing this. Also I'm not a fan of initially retriving the ball with a vampire as that means I need to manuver a thrall to run with the Vamp in case of OFAB. I decided to cut out the vampire at the back field as I was getting overrun up near the front of the pitch and let the Thrall take the job of ball collection and passing.

My latest team is like this right now: (we're just about to switch to 1.09)

1 - Vamp - Block
2 - Vamp - Block, Dodge
3 - Vamp (Newest Vampire)
4 - Vamp - Block, Dodge
5 - Vamp - Pro (He's been struggling to gain SPPs ever since I took pro)
6 - Thrall - Kick (Just died last match :\)
7 - Thrall - Block
8 - Thrall - Dirty Player
9 - Thrall
10 - Thrall
11 - Thrall - Pass, Sure Hands (I want a second one with Sure Hands)
12 - Thrall
13 - Thrall - Block, Tackle
14 - Thrall

5 * Reroll + Apoc.

(No stat increases yet )

The Block, Dodge Vampires have become something a lot of people are afraid of, the pro vampire gets jumped a lot because he's considered to be an easier target.

These are the 'position players' that I'm going to turn my vampires into this time round.
2 * Blitzer: Block, Dodge, Strip Ball, Tackle.
Prefered Stat increases, +MA
2 * Blocker: Block, Mighty Blow, Stand Firm, Guard, Jump Up (when it changes, not while it's split like it is in 1.09 atm)
Prefered Stat increases, +AV

Not sure what to do with the other two vampires, maybe make some offensive catching/running types. So the plan would be to go with the Blitzer Vamps on the pitch all the time and then rotate the Blocker/Scorers depending on if I'm recieving or kicking.

I'm more than happy to start discussing what you like to do with your Vampire team. It's always good to pick up some pointers.

[Cooper]

I always go Blodge, because it gives me lots of options both on offence and defence. I need all vamps (I use few) to be able to take down a ballcarrier or hold the ball with just one or two thralls as a screen. Blodge keeps them alive (well...) and on their feet.

I think you are wrong. Blodge doesnt give more options. It gives more reliablity. Not that that is a bad thing ofcourse .
But i do think that if you use your first 16 spps on blodge for EVERY vamp, you will have too little other important skills (guard!!? stripball? mightyblow? tackle?)

And that is not even considering thefact that you dont take thirst in your calculations.

I've found that taking pro in the first one or two skills is problematic, the vamps stat line is so flexible that they can ignore a lot of skills and make do. I do think that some vampires should have pro, having a couple with pro allows you to risk playing more than 3 - 4 vamps on the pitch at once (which in my league I've found I have to do if the game runs to extra time.).

Ok, our views arent that different than. I think i would like to have 3/4 vamps with pro. I think 2 out of 3 should have pro on the field. (totally based on feeling, not on calculations) I do think that it should be the second skill for your first 2 vamps. Just because your team isnt at full strenght yet, and eating your own guys is more problematic at that point.

My throwers are always short range passes or the occasional emergancy Hail Mary, so I don't want a vampire doing this..

Ok. that makes sense. If that is the way you play you dont need AG4 for it.
How do you deal with hard-hitter-teams? AV7 and 8 is difficult i think for close-combat.

My way of dealing with it is to play Elf-game. Get someone who can pass long passes and bombs reliable. your AG4 guys will catch it, so i don't think you really need catch-like skills. (pro doubles quite nice for catch though, if you already used the TRR)

Also I'm not a fan of initially retriving the ball with a vampire as that means I need to manuver a thrall to run with the Vamp in case of OFAB.
.

That is indeed a tactic i use now and then. Usually not with the result i want, but it does put pressure on their carrier right away. I am not sure if this is a good tactic yet. Perhaps the vamp is better used staying in my field.
It does however mean that you have someone to throw the ball too as well,...

i am not yet sure...

I decided to cut out the vampire at the back field as I was getting overrun up near the front of the pitch and let the Thrall take the job of ball collection and passing. .

I have the same problem of being overrun now and then. As soon as i roll a double or AG on a thrall i will develop one as thrower-type.

5 - Vamp - Pro (He's been struggling to gain SPPs ever since I took pro)

The Block, Dodge Vampires have become something a lot of people are afraid of, the pro vampire gets jumped a lot because he's considered to be an easier target..

Perhaps you should use him as your passer for a couple of spps? if he gets block he's a lot better protected. AG4-pro makes for a pretty good passer.

I never experienced the problem of people ganging up on the weakest vamp yet. Actually, very often the other thing "take out the good one and he is nothing" is seen more often. Ofcourse my weakest vamp still goes out more often...

(No stat increases yet ).

i was pretty lucky.

Here is my team (from recollection)
1) Vamp Pro, Block
2) Vamp Pro AG5 <= passertype
3) Vamp ST5

(pretty lucky, i know)

1) thrall, block
2) thrall, kick
3) ... -1AG, Ni, block
4)...-1AV
5)...block
6)...+1ST
7) ni
8
9
10
11

5 rr, 1 apo

These are the 'position players' that I'm going to turn my vampires into this time round.
2 * Blitzer: Block, Dodge, Strip Ball, Tackle.
Prefered Stat increases, +MA.

I would go for mightyblow here as well, on one of them...and perhaps dodge is less important on blitzers?

2 * Blocker: Block, Mighty Blow, Stand Firm, Guard, Jump Up (when it changes, not while it's split like it is in 1.09 atm)
Prefered Stat increases, +AV.

I think dodge is more important on blockers then on blitzers, i would certainly take it before Jumpup. Block-Guard-MightyBlow sounds best to me....sidestep/standfirm, dodge, .[/quote]

But since you already said you wanted some pro somewhere as well, where do you put that? and at the cost of which skills? Because, i think getting more than 3 skills is not realistic, or at least not part of general plan.

Not sure what to do with the other two vampires, maybe make some offensive catching/running types. So the plan would be to go with the Blitzer Vamps on the pitch all the time and then rotate the Blocker/Scorers depending on if I'm recieving or kicking..

I wouldnt go for catching types AG4 catches an accratue pass or handoff on a 2+ already. Especially if you give some guys pro, those could be your catchers. Blodge seems to me the obvious choice on runners. that would make them pro-blodgers. perfect runners/catchers i think.

I'm more than happy to start discussing what you like to do with your Vampire team. It's always good to pick up some pointers.

the plan is clear. But why do want to make them in pairs? you could make each of them do his own stuff, right?

W

[Gus]

you do take OFAB in consideration: since i might have to RR OFAB with my vamp, i need to have Dodge to still be able to try these 3+ 2+ dodges that make vamp teams so surprising for the opponent. so Dodge is my first pick (and it helps because when your key players are AV8, you need to protect them). then, i need Block, obviously. and then, i'll get Guard, and Tackle, and maybe another skill on another vamp. sure, that's 31 SPP, but vamps should be able to score quite often, too, especially when they can Dodge around and rarely fall to blocks.

but anyway, the fact the the vamp team starts with no skills is obviously a drawback to the team.

maybe it'd be worth it if someone tried an ultra-specialized vamp team, with sure hands and pass on one, block and guard on another, dodge and strip ball on a third, etc...

[Cooper]

but anyway, the fact the the vamp team starts with no skills is obviously a drawback to the team.

maybe it'd be worth it if someone tried an ultra-specialized vamp team, with sure hands and pass on one, block and guard on another, dodge and strip ball on a third, etc...

Yeah,...this is what i have in mind to do with my team, apart from having a lot of pro around too.
As said, i dont know if it is the best tactic, but i think you need to be more specialistic than just having blodgers at higher teamratings.

(i am not sure if this is general idea, but i think Amazons are very weak at higher TR's, they just dont excell in anything,...sure the are all blodgers, but tackle will get that out of teh way. Especially without stat increases. That's where i get the idea of not going for Blodge on all your good guys)

[fen]

How do you deal with hard-hitter-teams? AV7 and 8 is difficult i think for close-combat.

Honestly, I don't play against the hitter teams. The Vamp team is considered an easy win by just about every coach in my league as by turn 5 I'm fresh out of rerolls and OFABing another of my own players with my pro vampire.

The Human, Skaven and Dark Elf teams I've played against did such a good job of decimating my vampires that I've out and out refused to play against most of the hitting teams. I did play against an Orc player but that's because he's not a very good coach and I wanted to give him a game. My vamps spent the match being chased down by Blitzers/Black Orcs and Stunned/KOed.

Perhaps you should use him as your passer for a couple of spps? if he gets block he's a lot better protected. AG4-pro makes for a pretty good passer.

Didn't think of that, probably will.

As for the vampires with pro situation. I'm going with 2 offensive vampires, 2 defensive vampires and 2 block/pro vampires now. This means I'll be fielding 4 vampires each drive, 2 with pro and 2 without.

I wanted Jump up on my 'blocking vampires' to allow them to get up and hit people without taking up my blitz move. The new Jump up (in 1.10 PBBL) is currently (not final version) looking like an agility roll to use in order to get the block. I'm thinking AG:4 players with STR:4 might be ideal to try this out with. It also would allow them to break cages with a combination of blocks and hypnotic gaze (these guys would be cage stopping specialists) and Jump Up + run off somewhere if needed.

It's just an idea I want to try out with my vampires. I love Stand Firm, Jump up and Guard. I forgot about Sidestep + Dodge, that could well make for superior LOS players. In fact as I look at it now I'm liking your Block/Guard/MB/Side Step/Dodge a lot.

the plan is clear. But why do want to make them in pairs? you could make each of them do his own stuff, right?

Erm, I have slight OCD and I like everything in pairs.

[Gus]

(i am not sure if this is general idea, but i think Amazons are very weak at higher TR's, they just dont excell in anything,...sure the are all blodgers, but tackle will get that out of teh way. Especially without stat increases. That's where i get the idea of not going for Blodge on all your good guys)

except that amazons are not ST4 AG4, and THAT goes a long way towards making a Blodging Vampire a very mobile, very powerful hitter (for only 16 SPPs after all), especially when combined to his fellow vamps' HG.

[Cooper]

(i am not sure if this is general idea, but i think Amazons are very weak at higher TR's, they just dont excell in anything,...sure the are all blodgers, but tackle will get that out of teh way. Especially without stat increases. That's where i get the idea of not going for Blodge on all your good guys)

except that amazons are not ST4 AG4, and THAT goes a long way towards making a Blodging Vampire a very mobile, very powerful hitter (for only 16 SPPs after all), especially when combined to his fellow vamps' HG.

This is true ofcourse. But i just don't think that being very reliable (apart from thirst) and hard to bring down will cut it. Your thralls will leave the pitch one by one (either by you, or by someone else) and your numbers will go down. As soon as you are outnumbered things will go wrong, even for BlodgingVamps.
But perhaps i am wrong

W

[Cooper]

How do you deal with hard-hitter-teams? AV7 and 8 is difficult i think for close-combat.

Honestly, I don't play against the hitter teams. The Vamp team is considered an easy win by just about every coach in my league as by turn 5 I'm fresh out of rerolls and OFABing another of my own players with my pro vampire.

The Human, Skaven and Dark Elf teams I've played against did such a good job of decimating my vampires that I've out and out refused to play against most of the hitting teams. I did play against an Orc player but that's because he's not a very good coach and I wanted to give him a game. My vamps spent the match being chased down by Blitzers/Black Orcs and Stunned/KOed.

Right,...well in that case you can try to make a passing game? i think that should work against Orcs. If agile teams decimated your vampires something went wrong i think. What was it? how did they do that?

As for the vampires with pro situation. I'm going with 2 offensive vampires, 2 defensive vampires and 2 block/pro vampires now. This means I'll be fielding 4 vampires each drive, 2 with pro and 2 without.

sounds reasonable. I still have only 3 vamps atm

I wanted Jump up on my 'blocking vampires' to allow them to get up and hit people without taking up my blitz move. The new Jump up (in 1.10 PBBL) is currently (not final version) looking like an agility roll to use in order to get the block. I'm thinking AG:4 players with STR:4 might be ideal to try this out with. It also would allow them to break cages with a combination of blocks and hypnotic gaze (these guys would be cage stopping specialists) and Jump Up + run off somewhere if needed.:

I didnt know the new Jumpup thoughts. so they made it worse from what it was? but they made it skill instead or something? Up till now i dont think i have ever taken jumpup as a trait,...there is always so much better to chose on a double (imo). But let me know how it fares if you try it.

It's just an idea I want to try out with my vampires. I love Stand Firm, Jump up and Guard. I forgot about Sidestep + Dodge, that could well make for superior LOS players. In fact as I look at it now I'm liking your Block/Guard/MB/Side Step/Dodge a lot.:

i like it too, it's just that at that point you will be around 100spp

the plan is clear. But why do want to make them in pairs? you could make each of them do his own stuff, right?

Erm, I have slight OCD and I like everything in pairs.

heh, ok.
I am not saying having pairs is bad, because they will be less vulnerable. But i will try to go for completely different vamps.
W

[fen]

Right,...well in that case you can try to make a passing game? i think that should work against Orcs. If agile teams decimated your vampires something went wrong i think. What was it? how did they do that?

They isolated and ganged up on my vampires,

sounds reasonable. I still have only 3 vamps atm

My team has 5, we had a slightly higher starting budget than normal in our league and I've rolled very well for winnings.

I didnt know the new Jumpup thoughts. so they made it worse from what it was? but they made it skill instead or something? Up till now i dont think i have ever taken jumpup as a trait,...there is always so much better to chose on a double (imo). But let me know how it fares if you try it.

Yeah the new jump up has in 1.09 PBBL been split into two skills (Jump up that works on anything but block moves and spring back that works on blocks) because there are no traits and there was a need to address Jump Up Big Guys/Mummies. But the feedback hasn't been good on that so instead JU is being altered to include an agility check to use. But I don't know the final details of that one yet. So the JU vampires probably won't happen.

i like it too, it's just that at that point you will be around 100spp

Well right now have 4 vamps at 20+ so it'll be about Christmas time that they'll be that developed. Not having a basic skill like Block or Dodge on starting vamps is a real pain at times. But they're ment to be bad until they develop properly, it makes them a chore... I mean challenge.

[Mad Jackal]

I started 11 thralls with 6 re-rolls nine FF and an apoth.

Getting thrashed my 1st game vs skaven ( 2 dead, -1 ST SI, and a reg SI) out of 6 injury rolls.

I took the 80k and bought 2 thralls so I'm left playing with 9 thralls for my next match.

I realize it was somewhat horrid luck that with my 6 re-rolls and constant attempts at passing that I only got 4 completions.

The mvp who went to one, who also was a death. Wasted mvp/skill there.

And another was a late game pass on a thrall lucky enough to garner both a casualty and a touchdown. Regular skill so I took kick.

My question is this. When taking my first vamp I was thinking of giving him catch to help the thralls in skilling up.

what do you guys think ?

I avoided vamps to start for a couple reasons.
1. I wanted to get several re-rolls so OFAB wasn't an issue.
2. I wanted to skill my thralls so that the team woudl have depth.--in my experience with skaven I know my tendancies to use GR for everything and the line rats fall behind. Thus the team suffers. I figured the Vamps at 4 st 4 ag would hog my spp too.

I was thinkig of running the lead thrall to the endzone. passing from a thrall who picked it up, to the vamp who could then hand off to the endzone thrall - or he could score himself if he failed OFAB. ??

I know you don't reccomend catch on vamps. But I was thinking to trun him into a passblocker or kick returner- assuming for now that it will be difficult to be able to afford to cut him later just because he had catch then.....

Thoughts ?

OH, I'm in LRB now, but going to go vault when it comes online, so either format is ok....

[MickeX]

I don't really believe in skilling up the thralls. Their job is to stand in the way IMHO, nothing else. One with kick is important, a dp can be useful, one with tackle is nice since there are often more important skills for the vamps, and a few with block is of course nice too - but I value the vamp SPP:s much higher.

[Cooper]

I don't really believe in skilling up the thralls. Their job is to stand in the way IMHO, nothing else. One with kick is important, a dp can be useful, one with tackle is nice since there are often more important skills for the vamps, and a few with block is of course nice too - but I value the vamp SPP:s much higher.

I half agree, half don't. I think skilling up thralls is pretty good, BUT you should remember they are only 6337. They will die easily from blocks already, AND there are your own guys who want to eat them,...

They are fodder for a large part. But i also agree that without skilled thralls you wont get far, so at least some of them need to get skilled. I would just make sure that you dont give everyone spps...and that you eat the ones without,...

I think the difference with skaven is that your vamps are a LOT slower than your GR's, so they will get a bit less spps anyway.


I dont think catch is a good option....well,...perhaps it is a good option for now, building up your team, but later, when your team is build up Catch is wasted skill i think. And as posted above, they already lack the basic skills and need all the skills they can get to be ok.

perhaps pro instead of catch? it is a poor man's catch, but it improves your chances of catching greatly,...AND it helps against thirst,...(and with blocking)
and more importantly, it is a skill you will want to have on some of your vampires later anyway.


W

[Mad Jackal]

I guess Pro would do what I want it to... Ag 4 on the vamp is already better than the stupid ag 3 thralls who won't catch each other's passes.

I would think a vamp team would need a kicker. A dirty player. Block to make the guys on the line that much"tougher".

Obviously my 2 St thrall is nothing but Larry, "May I show kind sir my neck" vamp escort. But realistically...

Aside from the kicker and maybe the dirty player. If every thrall has block then who does it matter who gets bitten ? And if an odd thrall is only the mvp away from block I think biting a block one will work out ok.

Especially with the Vault in mind where spp don't add to TR.
I'm not looking to take all thralls to 31 ( or even 16 ) spp, but 6 is just so darn "easy" to get I wouldn't know why you wouldn't.

As for GR being tons faster than vamps, I agreee. Now wouldn't that be an argument for having some more skilled thralls as the 4 vamps on the pitch won't be able to score as well / easily in bad situations like the Gutter runners.....

I thought a catch vamp could passblock and or also be the assist cutting "stand next to the opponents ball carrier man in the cage." Then when the ball is blitzed free, a catch guy will be hanging around just in case... We'll see.

Thanks for the input. At this rate it'll be 4 games before I'm able to buy a vampire anyway.