Advices on building a wood elf team

[Warhammer]

Hi Warhammer,
I think we should just agree to disagree.

Agreed, but I think this is an excellent discussion for the WE coaches out there!

>Yeah, but that is why you do it at the end of your turn. A lineelf getting
>hurt is not as severe as a catcher getting hurt.
Yep, at the end of turn.
But the lineelfs will still have 1/6 to fall over, and catchers 1/36 - assuming you don't have rerolls to throw around.
And anyone that didn't get to move will be bashed.

Not to mention that it is an advantage that you don't have to wait until the end of turn to move those catchers. You can actually use them for tactical stuff like providing assists.

This depends on the situation. Typically, in the first few games with a new team, you will have enough players that not all of the linemen will be in tackle zones. I am normally in a position to move one player in for an assist, where another player can throw a block that frees another lineelf to move in to position for another assist. Plus, after my second game, at least two lineelves have block or dodge, so I have some more flexibility. Those with block can throw a 1 die block with a 1/6 chance of failure (the same odds as dodging out), once you start thinking like this (hard for an elvish coach I know! ) you suddenly can start to get some CAS SPPs with your lineelves. This allows you to get your other lineelves that all important first skill.

Also, once I get my 2nd WD, typically after the 2nd game, I get either a catcher or a tree. So after game 3, we are pretty much on the same page.

>Yeah, but you're still making the dodge roll. Additionally, if you are
>playing against dwarves, you are in for worse luck because of their
>tackle skill.
Yes - and at 35/36 success rate, I'll take the dodge.
Dwarves are dangerous for catchers.
If your league has a high % of dwarf teams, then the catcher route is admittedly very risky.

I can certainly understand this.

>So you don't want to use the re-rolls on the dodges at 2+, but for catching at 2+ it is ok?
If I have a reroll available, I can try to give it to a lineman.
If not, my catcher can score. Excellent options.
But if you 'dodge away' 3 linemen every turn, then I don't think you'll have the rerolls to keep using them for that.

Yeah, I never use my re-rolls on a dodge at the end of the turn. Now a dodge during the turn, I will use the re-roll. However, those are normally in a defensive situation where everything else has failed (WD stunned on ground, they punched a hole in my D and only one lineelf can get back, etc.). Because of that, my re-rolls are available for use with catching the ball, handoffs, etc.

If it is early in my drive and my opponent has a low chance of getting the ball, I will throw a pass to get the SPP for my lineelf, but, if I am about to score (unless I have a lead), I always go for the handoff because have fewer rolls to make.

Maybe we just have different experience with linemen and catchers.
I like my catchers to get 1st skill, for block or sidestep.
And I don't find that my linemen will always pop up in good positions and roll well.

Good choices for their first skill, I typically go for block first (keeps them up and alive!) and just keep them away from the sideline until I can get sidestep.

I think we actually value the players similarly, but we put different emphasis on when to get the players. You like to get the catchers early to get skills on them and make your team more competitive. I prefer to get the catchers later so I can develop my lineelves for a few games to give them block or dodge, and then get my catcher.

Once I am able to buy my catcher, my lineelves have been able to get 1-2 skills and I should have at least one blodger for the LOS. When I advance my lineelves, I typically give some block, some dodge, and then one or two strip ball or diving tackle or something along those lines, guard goes on any doubles. When the opposing team is tackle heavy, the blockers go on the line, otherwise the dodge elves go on the line.

Why that way? Block is a bigger offensive skill, dodge is the better defensive skill. On the LOS, if your opponent rolls both down, if he does not have block, he will re-roll the result, regardless of whether you go down as well. However, if he does have block, and you have block, nothing changes. If he has block and you don't you go down. So in 2/3 cases, you are safe.

Now, let's figure this out with dodge. Again, assuming a both down result comes up, if he does not have block, he is going to re-roll the result. If he has block you are going down. But this is compensated by the fact that !-pow is only a push back for you now. So you will probably go down on the pitch less with dodge players on the front line (obviously blodge players are even better!).

On the offensive side of the ball, the dodge players allow you to dodge out of tackle zones easier, which I do at the end of my turn anyway. It's nice, but not a necessity here. But block can be used to make any one die block a lot more safe. Now, you only have a 1/6 chance of failing on a single die block, and you have a 1/2 chance of forcing the other player down if he does not have block or dodge (both down, !-pow, pow).

Also, to whoever mentioned putting catchers on the LOS, don't forget that there is a 11/36 chance of a ST3 player putting that catcher down on the turf (remember he is getting 2 dice!). Whereas that unskilled lineelf is looking a a 1/3 chance of being put down on the turf. This is assuming that a both down result is ignored.

Cheers
Martin

Ah well. Either way, the wood elf team is a good team. Chances are they'll do fine

I agree with this 100%! See Martin, we can agree!

[wesleytj]

I agree with WH on pretty much all respects here, with all due respect to plasmoid, and as he noted, both ways work, it's a matter of personal taste.

Two things WH said that stuck out to me, though... the first was this:

Also, once I get my 2nd WD, typically after the 2nd game, I get either a catcher or a tree. So after game 3, we are pretty much on the same page.

How do you make so much money?! I assume you buy an apoth too right? That means you've "typically" made $170k in 2 games? And then another 90-100 the game after that?

Also:

This depends on the situation. Typically, in the first few games with a new team, you will have enough players that not all of the linemen will be in tackle zones. I am normally in a position to move one player in for an assist, where another player can throw a block that frees another lineelf to move in to position for another assist. Plus, after my second game, at least two lineelves have block or dodge, so I have some more flexibility. Those with block can throw a 1 die block with a 1/6 chance of failure (the same odds as dodging out), once you start thinking like this (hard for an elvish coach I know! ) you suddenly can start to get some CAS SPPs with your lineelves. This allows you to get your other lineelves that all important first skill.

This can work too, making blocks instead of dodges. The thing you have to keep in mind is that this can sometimes tend to make your elves pair up, which makes your defensive containment harder to maintain. You want to keep a good spacing of evles just out of reach of the other team so they can't go very far each turn.

It all depends on the situation. As you noted a 1db, if you have block, has equal chance of failure as a 2+ dodge. If you DON'T yet have block, however...you certainly don't want to take the both down option if you can avoid it, that's almost always a trade off wood elves lose.

[Warhammer]

Also, once I get my 2nd WD, typically after the 2nd game, I get either a catcher or a tree. So after game 3, we are pretty much on the same page.

How do you make so much money?! I assume you buy an apoth too right? That means you've "typically" made $170k in 2 games? And then another 90-100 the game after that?

Sorry, add a game's winnings to that. I forgot in my latest league, in my haste to fill out my team form, I only bought 9 line elves! That's why I was able to buy the WD so quickly...

This can work too, making blocks instead of dodges. The thing you have to keep in mind is that this can sometimes tend to make your elves pair up, which makes your defensive containment harder to maintain. You want to keep a good spacing of evles just out of reach of the other team so they can't go very far each turn.

It all depends on the situation. As you noted a 1db, if you have block, has equal chance of failure as a 2+ dodge. If you DON'T yet have block, however...you certainly don't want to take the both down option if you can avoid it, that's almost always a trade off wood elves lose.

Yes on all counts! I normally don't chance the 1-die block if I do not have block since I am normally better off dodging at that point. I figure that given equal odds, I am better off throwing the block as you might get the !-pow, pow, both down, or push back 83% of the time which is basically the same thing I am trying to accomplish with the dodge. With the block you never know when you might get some SPPs with a CAS. I still remember the what the heck block I through at a rookie rat ogre with a catcher with block and watching the rat croak... squeek rather.

[plasmoid]

Hi Warhammer,
good post.
A single comment regarding catchers on the LOS:

You should not be comparing 2die on catchers vs 1die on linemen on the LOS.
Because, nobody, nobody will be forced to do 1die blocks against the linemen on the LOS.
They'll get 2die blocks. And most likely 3die blocks against the catchers.

And mathemetaically, in that situation, the catchers will be harder to drop than the linemen.

Cheers
Martin

PS - like you, once I've developed some linemen with dodge, I'll put those on the LOS instead of the catchers. The catchers on the LOS is just a temporary tactic.