Kick skill?

[Deathwing]

I'm of the opinion that it's a little overpowered against the slower teams. That single skill can totally compromise set up, force desperation measures on offence if you've got 3 turns or less to score with a slow team by kicking deep, it's almost impossible to cover if you're down on numbers, and any common garden zombie or line f**kwit can take it.

I think it's that good that every team should have a kicker, and if it's that ubiquitous then what the hell's the point? In any kind of developed league you're setting up for it anyway. Something that's a no brainer for every team isn't good for the game IMO.

It bugs the hell out of me. Am I alone? Opinions?

[Melifaxis]

Well, you could always house rule a minimum agility onto it I suppose, but I think its just one of those things you're a fool if you dont take. Plus, most teams only take one, and a quick boot to the head can do wonders

[D'Arquebus]

I think that house ruling a minimum agility onto the skill will in fact only hurt the slower teams more, yes?

Personally, I'm one of the few coaches in my leagues who consistently takes this skill. That said I imagine they will wise up eventually. I can foresee a situation where everyone has one, and yet Block anyone?

I think the ability to quickly move the ball up into a pocket is essential to develop in a slower team anyway. So the deep kick shouldn't cause too many problems.

Besides, the deep kick against me would be more then counteracted by my ability to put the ball close behind the LOS on my kicks. I realised a deep kick against fast teams gives them plenty of time in a safe area to position receivers and then get the ball. Putting it right up behind the line on one wing makes them get it quick and get it back deep, else I can get my spiky guantlets onto it. This ability got my about 6-7 thrower sackings in the course of a 6 game season and puts alot more pressure (or at least the same) on a fast team as I think the reverse does to the slower ones.

[gken1]

just wait til the PBBL rules go into effect.....no more bad kick to worry about so the ball has even less chance to go outta bounds

but you will be able to put a player underneath the ball....HAHA! that helps low ag teams

[gken1]

also if there's one skill that should be chosen before a dice roll....it's the kick skill. choosing to see where you can kick it after the dice are rolled just isn't intuitive.

[Mad Jackal]

also if there's one skill that should be chosen before a dice roll....it's the kick skill. choosing to see where you can kick it after the dice are rolled just isn't intuitive.

I agree. Deciding to use kick or not after the dice just really seems wrong to me.

I actually think I'd prefer it to be "always on" instead of "choose before"..

I mean if it is just a dim witted kicker like deathwing suggests, then fine, put the kicker on the bench or los if you don't want to halve the dice roll...

I'll be interested to see what happens when bad kick goes away.

[wesleytj]

kick is a good skill no question. but i don't think it needs weakened. it is more useful against slower teams than faster teams, but that doesn't make it bad either...mighty blow is more useful against av7 or 8 teams than against mostly av9 teams too, DESPITE it's already being weakened.

there are lots of skills that are ubiquitous to high tr teams as well....block springs to mind. it's a skill that just about every player type wants to get at some point in it's development, and for most its the first skill almost without question. i don't see anyone suggesting we limit or weaken it. (not that this is an invitation to)

to be honest, i think that this sort of logic has lead to a weakening of a lot of skills in the game, and it's started us down a slippery slope. if you weaken 3 or 4 skills, the suddenly one of the skills left untouched is suddenly powerful by comparison. do we weaken that too? it will eventually come to a point where it will be better to fire most players after their 2nd or 3rd skill because the tr hit for the spp isn't worth the limited return they get from the skills. here's hoping that day never comes.

[GalakStarscraper]

it will eventually come to a point where it will be better to fire most players after their 2nd or 3rd skill because the tr hit for the spp isn't worth the limited return they get from the skills. here's hoping that day never comes.

None of the PBBL testers have suggested such a thing at all ... so my belief would be that this didn't happen.

As for Kick being "too good". PBBL could be argued to have addressed this: High Kick whittles into the Kick skill more than Bad Kick does. Kick-off return whittles into Kicks advantage even more. However making Kick worse wasn't why either of these changes were made.

Galak

[gken1]

As for Kick being "too good". PBBL could be argued to have addressed this: High Kick whittles into the Kick skill more than Bad Kick does. Kick-off return whittles into Kicks advantage even more. However making Kick worse wasn't why either of these changes were made.

Galak

sorry Tom, High Kick does not whittle into Kick skill. In Deathwings' example kick it deep and make the slow team drive the field.....ball is still deep and recieving team might have a 50% chance to catch the ball or 33% if AG2 team.

Bad Kick the ball woulda had a chance to go outta bounds even with Kick Skill and GIVEN to a player.

hmmm....Bad Kick seems better to me.

[duff]

With kick skill is the only time placing the ball for the kick is anything other than a "where's the centre?" no-brainer. It allows the kicker to influence the play more subtley. For example if you set up strong on one side, you may be threatening to kick short on that side. It adds interest and options for the defender.

As for forcing desperation measures - Isn't that where the fun lies?
Also, if you have trouble scoring in 3 turns but find yourself with only 3 turns to score, you DESERVE to have to use desperation measures!

[GalakStarscraper]

hmmm....Bad Kick seems better to me.

That a tomato tomoto argument for me.

Since Kick still cuts Bad Kick in half ... I've not often had Bad Kick turn a kick-off with the Kick skill into ball in hand for me. So for me ... I'd personally rather have someone get under the ball for the free catch roll than for Kick to to slice Bad Kick in half and still have it be in my back field.

Again ... you see it one way ... I see it the other on this one. Not saying either of us is correct.

Galak

[Deathwing]

kick is a good skill no question. but i don't think it needs weakened. it is more useful against slower teams than faster teams, but that doesn't make it bad either...mighty blow is more useful against av7 or 8 teams than against mostly av9 teams too, DESPITE it's already being weakened.

there are lots of skills that are ubiquitous to high tr teams as well....block springs to mind. it's a skill that just about every player type wants to get at some point in it's development, and for most its the first skill almost without question. i don't see anyone suggesting we limit or weaken it. (not that this is an invitation to)

It's not just high tr teams though, the sheer amount of Kick you see in Res style tournies is a case in point. An awful lot of coaches take it, and what's more take it early. The fact that so many people on so many different teams opt for it on a lino rather than putting a skill on a positional player says something. You even come across it quite regularly at tournies on a Saurus because it's simply stronger than Guard, Break Tackle or Mighty Blow. Like the aforementioned Zombie, who needs agility for precision?

Most in game skills you can play around, avoid MB, counter Block with Block, take Tackle to go after Dodgers, target DPs and/or leave the Eye, Sure Hands counters Strip Ball etc. A Kicker sat in the dugout when your opponent is driving however you can do nothing about whatsoever.
(Well I suppose you could reduce him to 3 players for the next drive so that the kicker's on the line. ).

Another point is that less players your opponent has, the stronger kick becomes. That makes it a really solid option for the bash teams too.

Kick is pretty much guaranteed to be a factor. If (for example) you're pressuring me into scoring and leaving you enough time to reply, a kicker in my dugout gives me big leeway. Against a slower team it's more or less a turn gone, you'll have to spread to cover deep, you'll have to cover short. I can opt to leave you 3 turns to score, knowing that I've got 2 to try for another.

Most skills influence certain actions on the pitch, Kick is almost strategic (if you get my drift) in comparison because of the influence it has on the 'big picture' and the sheer scope of what it enables you to do, even without the player being on the pitch.

Academic anyway with no changes to the LRB before the Vault, just thought I'd throw it out there for discussion because it bugs me.

[D'Arquebus]

I can see what you're saying Deathwing about the prevalence of the skill. I myself would be one of those coaches taking it ASAP in a tournament setting (and in fact I did at the recent Eucalyptus Bowl down in OZ) where it proved VERY useful.

Again I would say though that I do not think it is that badly slanted against the slower teams. The ability to "hurry" or threaten the ball carrier on a fast team by putting the ball just behind their line on their weaker side forces them to scurry to safe guard the ball. This may well work out for them most of the time but it at least makes setting up a 'text book' 2 turn TD a bit more challenging. And the one time it does force the turnover could well swing the game in your favour. As an example of this my third opponent in the tournament had norse and a kicker as well (the only other one I encountered). He made the mistake of always trying to force the ball deep against me (Humans). This gave me plenty of time to set up a safe receiver and delay for turn after turn while he tried to get closer to my deep thrower whilst also covering my potential receivers. Had he put the ball short, I would still have needed at least one thrower deep incase he put it long and so my thrower up front would have had to potentially scramble to even reach the ball. Also the Norse team (MV 6) would have been putting extreme pressure on from their first turn and I couldn't have delayed the four turns or so that I did whilst my receivers tried to get open.

As for the almost strategic dominence of the skill, I suppose it just doesn't worry me too much. It IS available to every team (even lowly zombies as you yourself pointed out) and so that's an even playing field, assuming you accept my thoughts on how it is an equally useful skill for slower teams. Also I have always approached the game with some thought to how 'real world' football of all codes plays. And in them a good kicker can indeed help to dominate the game.

Finally, I am always trying to look outside the box with respect to skills selection. For example, even on this forum people are often advocating the take Blodge first on almost every player (if an option). I have always considered Kick to be an outside the box skill for a lineman. On my recent Chaos team (who made good use of the short kick option against my faster opponents) I only got to taking Block on most of my beastmen as a third skill if then, and even the Chaos Warriors only got it as a second skill. My second developing Beatman player got Kick then Tackle. As you might guess this player helped me to really dominate the flow of the game, against both fast and slow teams, due to his excellent Kick skill (and incidently remain useful as a sweeper with tackle). Is this a bad thing? I consider it to be a more interesting way to play Chaos then if everyone takes Block, Guard, Mighty Blow excetera and trys to simply kill the other team. So often when I hear people complain about how boring some teams are, I then simply wonder why they don't chose to take a different skill selection which would open up several other game options for them.