[PBBL House Rules] Alternate League Rules

[pac]

My suggestions from the rules set:

... You may then also wish to use some [or all] of the following rules:

a) The signing of a ‘foreign’ player upsets the fans. Roll one dice for each such signing: 1-3 - no effect, the fans grumble but accept it; 4-6 - Fan Factor is reduced by one;
b) The signing of a ‘foreign’ player causes disruption in the dressing room and upsets the unity of the team. Roll one dice for each such signing: 1-3 - no effect; 4-6 - lose a Team Re-roll permanently;
c) 'Foreign' players find it difficult to adapt to the team ethic and playing style, and all count as having the Loner Extraordinary Ability while playing on a 'Foreign' team.
d) Each ‘foreigner’ in a side makes further Team Re-rolls purchased more expensive, by 10,000 per 'foreigner'.
e) A Commissioner running a multi-race team league may wish to adapt the Star Player Quirk table to make the <i>Xenophobe</i> Quirk more common (and the <i>Broad-minded</i> Quirk less common). This will result in more Stars causing a ruckus when ‘foreigners’ are brought in to steal their limelight.

The most important, non-optional rule is that ‘foreign’ players still count towards position limits. So if a Human team signs a Dwarf Blitzer, he counts towards their maximum of four (Human) Blitzers. Also, the maximum numbers of positional players a team can take from another list is equal to <i>one quarter</i> the number normally allowed on that list (rounded up). So an Orc team is normally allowed up to four Blitzers, but a Goblin team could sign only <i>one</i> Orc Blitzer.

The League Commissioner should keep a wary eye out for coaches who look for loop-holes in these regulations: for example, the afore-mentioned Goblin team can only have one <i>Orc</i> Blitzer, but they may then try and sign a Skaven Blitzer, a Dark Elf Blitzer, etc. This would go against the spirit of these house rules: a Commissioner might judge that the Goblins should only be allowed one or perhaps two ‘foreign’ Blitzers of whatever race.

Your league may want to make some exemptions to some or all of these restrictions for certain multi-race combinations (eg the time-honoured Skaven-Goblin combination ...).

I'd tend towards using as many of those rules as possible: being able to have (for example) an Elf Catcher in place of a Human one is a huge advantage, and there has to be some serious payback for that. Also, there will always be some coaches who want to run a 'classic' line-up without 'foreigners': and if there aren't severe penalties for having foreigners then those coaches (who are just following the standard rules, after all) are effectively being penalised.

In my opinion, a 'foreign' player should have to be very good (ie good Star Potential or existing skills/stat ups) for it to be worth bringing him into a side given the associated penalties. On the other hand, you don't want the penalties to be so severe that no team <i>ever</i> wants to hire a 'foreigner'.

All that being said: if <i>every</i> coach in your league is <i>completely</i> happy with the idea of everyone running totally mongrel teams, then there hardly need to be any penalties at all: however, all these teams may soon start to look the same …

[mattski]

Now the problem that I have with this is that this is the one area of your rules that I don't think has altered enough to gel with the PBBL rules.

Hurting FF was a big factor in the changes and so losing 1FF when you sign a foreign \pfft. On the other hand losing a re-roll waaaay too much.

I keep trying to come up with rules that will have an impact both on and off the field (Loner is possibly best for on it) but I agree that the trick is to make the hazards be interesting enough to make it worthwhile but not a slam dunk.

Maybe make foreigns 25% more expensive to buy initially. More likely to become disillusioned? Foreigns of all types have to roll on a table to see how happy they are at end of season? -10k from the winnings? -1 to FAME rolls?

Grrrr, I know there is a way of making this felxible and fun which will allow teams to have allied players without creating completely boring teams which have no weaknesses.

[mattski]

If you are interested in rules pac, then check out http://bobba.no/regelboken91.pdf as there is so much stuff here that you may wish to include some of it in yours.

I simply cannot believe the complexity of the system if you were able to combine both

[MadLordAnarchy]

That's the sort of attention to detail I wish I had. Will definitely be thinking how I can steal the pitch condition stuff.

[pac]

Hurting FF was a big factor in the changes and so losing 1FF when you sign a foreign \pfft. On the other hand losing a re-roll waaaay too much.

Yeah, these are suggestions not all of which need to be used: if I got a bit of protest from coaches that's one I'd be more than happy to drop. The severity of it does reflect for me that only a team with some financial resources (enough to replace a lost RR) could contemplate foreign signings, though.

Maybe make foreigns 25% more expensive to buy initially.

The problem with this for me is that most signings are made by a bidding system: or are transfers made between two teams. Having to beat all other bidders and then add on 25% as well doesn't really work for me.

More likely to become disillusioned? Foreigns of all types have to roll on a table to see how happy they are at end of season? -10k from the winnings? -1 to FAME rolls?

Disillusionment: kind of built into the Quirks with the Hatred/Xenophobe/Broad-minded Quirks. Not all leagues have seasons. Also, I'm not sure I'd want a <i>permanent</i> negative effect on income/FF rolls: in terms of fluff and real-world sports flavour, a 'foreigner' can become one of the most popular and income-drawing players in a side.

In the end I'm not really looking for a perfect system for this: because I don't think there is one. This is why I've only put suggestions as to how to approach this in my rules. Different leagues will have different numbers of coaches, who will have different opinions, will have more or fewer figures available (being able to have a mixed race team may be great for the guy who owns every BB miniature there is, but what about his opponent who owns just one team?). Different leagues will come up with different solutions: I don't see this as being core to the concept of my rules, and I don't want to try and cover too many bases.

Edit: Thanks for the link to that Norweigan league's rules. Hell of a lot of stuff to get my teeth into there! It'd take me a while to get my head round, or even just read, it all though (and there are plenty of things there which I don't like at first sight! ).

[mattski]

OK,

Stimulated by some of the great rules which are in the BOBBA .pdf I have had another crack at multi-race rules (not that I want you to think that I am obsessed with this or anything, and if by the way Pac you want me to move this out for fear of cluttering up the thread then just let me know).

This will be something of a rules-in-process so they will be subject to me thinking more about them or even suggestions. One of the things I like about BOBBA’s rules was a return (I think) to the idea of races having animosities between them and these rules are an attempt to capture some of the traditional race hatred whilst keeping the idea of professional teams trying to win stuff.

So, if you want to hire a player from a different race then the normal hiring rules apply in terms of money. But for a number of reasons the player simply doesn’t integrate with his new team mates or the fans that smoothly.

Each race will have a category of where other races fit in with the following effects:

Indifferent: New player has the ‘Loner’ skill and has the Despised (because it is just captures fan annoyance so well)

Dislike: New player has above and also one negative skill

Distrust: New player has above and two negative skills (i.e. two negatives in total)

Animosity: Will not play on team (?)

Negative skills:

1) cruelty : If there is a prone player, regardless of team, next to this player at the beginning of HIS turn, roll a d6. On a result of 1, this player MUST move first this turn immediately after any Wild Animal or Ball & Chain players (you may not skip him) and make a sort of foul. This will be all he does during this turn. This foul does not count when using IGMEOY and thus the player will only be evicted on a double and the foul will not move the IGMEOY marker. No assists can be given.

2) greater glory : When a player with this Negative skill wishes to Hand-Off or Pass the ball, roll a D6, on a 1, 2, or 3, the player becomes overcomed with his desire to score the touchdown and will not give up the ball, otherwise he may Pass or Hand-Off as normal. If the player refuses to give up the ball, he retains possession of it and this does NOT result in a Turnover despite the 4th edition rule about not finishing a Pass/Hand-off action being a turnover.

3) gluttony : At every Kick-off, roll a D6 for every player with Gluttony that could play in this drive. On a 1, the player is too busy eating to play.

4) idleness : If this player scores a touchdown, roll a d6. On a roll of 1 the player feels he has done enough for a while and will retreat to the dugout for the next drive, indulging in whatever he, she or it fancies. The player will miss the next drive, but will be available for play again after that drive.

5) pride : This player is being forced to play for the team. But the player is a proud person and not broken easily. Before taking any actions with this player (including handing off the ball to him) roll a d6. On a roll of 1, he will refuse to cooperate until he rolls something other than a 1 for a future Pride roll (or until the end of the drive)...

6) Not worthy : When a player with this Negative skill is holding the ball at the beginning of the turn, roll a D6 before moving any other player (other than Wild Animals). On a 1, 2, or 3, the player becomes overwhelmed with fear that holding the ball will be seen as overstepping his "bounds"...

7) will he show? : This player must roll a D6 at the start of the match. On a rull of 2-6, the player can be used normally, but on a roll of 1 the player has either arrived late because he's forgotten about the match, or is having trouble tying up his boot-laces, or is doing something equally stupid, with the result that he may not be used during the first drive of the match.

8 ) single minded : This player is totally focused on someone getting a touchdown IF he is holding the football. He can never move to a square or handoff/pass the ball to a player in which that square is farther from his endzone then he is.

All these skills are already programmed into the tool and there are loads of easy fluff reasons to explain them. Bash player with gluttony? He’s just tired of having to do all the leg work and won’t leave the dugout etc.

Losing the negatives? There could also be rules to see if a player will lose the negatives at the end of the season. Something like roll a d6 and +1 if you have won a trophy / gained promotion / led the league in something and if you get a 6 (7?) then you lose the despised skill.

Same roll maybe for each player with despised if you roll a 1 then the player wants to leave and simply walks away from the team. Or something like that.

Comments? Suggestions?

Some work would be needed to work out who feels what about who, but that’s for another day…

[pac]

Mattski, would you mind if I loot/adapt some of your 'negative skill' ideas there for use as Quirks in my system? (Or did you get them from Bobba, to begin with? - Still haven't read through it all myself!)

On the same note, if you were to integrate these rules with my system, these could be Quirks that are gained by the 'foreign' player: and so they could be lost (well, occasionally ...) in the same way that other Quirks are.

I like the idea of an allied/foreign player system which has initial tensions and hostility from the fans, which fade in time until he's just another one of the lads. It might end up being a bit elaborate, tho.

[mattski]

The reason that I used all of the negatives from here is because as they stand they are all programmed into the pbem tool already. The stars system is great (and I am getting closer to knocking a league idea into shape (with a few suggestions from BOBBA of course!)) but it is complex, which of course is half its charm. But the foreign players I wanted to be more set-up and then forget them. All of their effects should ideally be handled by the tool so the only that the coach has to remember is rolls for them at the end of the season to see how happy they are.

If you like any of this stuff then please be my guest as your rules have really prompted me to sit down and try to work out some more stuff to make the 'outside of the field' as fun as inside.

Also, in the previous rule suggestions what I meant by despised is that your own fans hate you. So if you win 'throw a rock' then one opposition player is hit as well as one of your own. A genius quirk since it adds so much to the sheer fun of the game.

edit: for a full list of what is in the pbem tool then check out : http://www.midgardbb.com/Skills.html All I did was to try and sort out which ones were the most convenient to hamper teams from simply loading up and covering weaknesses. As ever, the man to really thank for the huge amount of this is Tom/Galak

[pac]

Also, in the previous rule suggestions what I meant by despised is that your own fans hate you. So if you win 'throw a rock' then one opposition player is hit as well as one of your own. A genius quirk since it adds so much to the sheer fun of the game.

Nice: I think I'll add this in as the level 2 version of my own Despised Quirk.

Yes, in the context of a PBeM system, I see where you're coming from in terms of a fire-and-forget system.

[MadLordAnarchy]

That's the sort of attention to detail I wish I had. Will definitely be thinking how I can steal the pitch condition stuff.

Thanks mattski, I've successfully stolen the pitch condition from the link you posted and have incorporated it into my rules - I linked it to the weather table from the Snake Pit and turned it into a table of its own

[Ziggi Abschuss]

Smells a lot like 2nd edition companion & star player book rules is all I have to say.

Ziggi

[pac]

Smells a lot like 2nd edition companion & star player book rules is all I have to say.

Yep, cheerfully ripped off and adapted for a new age. (And acknowledged throughout, too.)

It's come quite a way from that all the same though, and: I find that team development becomes so much more interesting when it is not <i>totally</i> under your control. The ups-and-downs of this system can be great, I miss having a league to use the rules in.

(When PBBL 1.12 is finalised, and becomes LRB 5.0, I'll update this again.)

[mattski]

I have been reading the Dungeonbowl rules again (whilst casting my eyes over the fumbbl beta version which you can play on Java) and one thing really got my attention which is the team rules. I really think that with just a little tweaking they could provide an excellent alternate to the team set-ups.

Basically they are as follows:

"Each team can have up to 16 players, and can include up o two blitzers, four blockers, four catchers, two throwers, one star player, and any number of linemen. If you can use players that don’t fit into any of these categories (Dark Elf Witch Elves, for example), then you may have up to two of them. As in normal Blood Bowl, the total cost of a starting team may not exceed 1,000,000 gold pieces. Only star players belonging to one of the aces listed on the Team chart may be used in the team. You can buy fan factors, cheerleaders, apothecaries, etc, as normal. All Dungeonbowl teams may buy team re-rolls for 50,000 gold pieces each.

But the really kicker part is that teams are set up to be of multiple races. For example the Amber Wizard team consists of mainly Dark Elves with some Orcs and the occasional Skaven. Hmm, almost like if you were rolling up to see what players you could choose from you would say 1-3 Dark Elf (now roll a position) 4-5 Orc (ditto) and 6 Skaven. Then allied with this you can now have teams still sign up players that don't fit from their team list but add in some of the rules that have been talked about above to show how the fans just don't like them.

When I get the chance I will work on this a bit more but I think that there are real possibilites here to have teams that will retain a definite character but will also allow for some competition to exist to get players.

http://www.specialist-games.com/bloodbo ... onbowl.pdf

[pac]

But the really kicker part is that teams are set up to be of multiple races. For example the Amber Wizard team consists of mainly Dark Elves with some Orcs and the occasional Skaven. Hmm, almost like if you were rolling up to see what players you could choose from you would say 1-3 Dark Elf (now roll a position) 4-5 Orc (ditto) and 6 Skaven.

I see what you're saying: so (in something like my system), this team would be primarily Dark Elves, but might sometimes get competition for players from those teams which had DEs as their secondary or tertiary race.

Of course, the usual problems of multi-race teams apply: (how) do you limit the expected min-maxing, to avoid the above team from consisting of - Orc Lineman and Blockers for the LoS; Dark Elves for the mobile, fairly tough, mainstay of the team; a couple of Gutter Runners (for MA 9 AG 4-iness)? Then again, if you were rolling for positions it might take a long time to reach that state: perhaps it would work fine if this was the kind of thing teams were always working towards, because they would never actually achieve it.

Anyway, I'll certainly try to add an outline for a system like this to the next edition of my league rules.

[mattski]

Exactly and having position limits that cut across racial boundaries just adds to the fun! I really think that there is some potential here and I will try to work on it (altogether now) when time permits...