New Chaos team for league

Nethrag · Post by **Nethrag** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 11:33 am

Hi - this is my first post here and I am an utter utter noob at blood bowl.
If your still reading thankyou

I've played warhammer for about 15years and have heard of but never played blood bowl.
Theres a new league starting up soon, a lot of players will be like me either completely new to this or atleast havent played in years.
Everyone will be starting a team from scratch.
I'm pretty sure we'll be playing the rules straight from the book rather than any updated version on the net etc.

I want to play a chaos army - mainly so I dont have to buy more models lol and also I'm not averse to giving someone a physical beating over actually winning the game.

I've had a good look around the net for ideas already and so these are my potential starting lineups. I'm afraid I have no idea of the weight of agility teams vs strength teams in the league but if I had to guess I'd say there are likely to be slightly more agility teams.

Potential team 1

9 Beastmen
1 Chaos Warrior
1 Minotaur
3 rerolls
4 Fan factor

Potential team 2

8 Beastmen
1 Minotaur
2 Chaos Warriors
2 rerolls
7 Fan factor

Potential team 3

7 Beastmen
1 Minotaur
3 Chaos warriors
2 rerolls
3 Fan factor

As you can see I quite like the minotaur, esp as he's got the only real skills in the team to start with - I'm willing to drop him if its really a bad idea but I cant see why as hes only 10k more than a chaos warrior.

I'm going to need a skill double roll on a beastman asap to get big hand but until then I'll prob get a couple of pro skills to fill in until I manage to get lucky, block on all CW's and mino, Guard on a few beastmen, Dirty player on one and I'll take it from there.

Q's
1) Which of the three setups do you consider the "best", i.e. do I take full advantage of the "half price" rerolls at the start of the league, weakening the team? and how important is fan factor really?
2) Is my thinking right on skill progression
3) How many annoying first posts like this do you get a week? lol

Thanks

Al the Trowel · Post by **Al the Trowel** » Mon Jun 05, 2006 1:14 pm

Firstly, hi and welcome to TBB!

Secondly Chaos league teams. First thing to consider when setting up a Chaos team is how long the season is. Chaos is quite a challenging team as the players are all expensive and none of them have any skills, but they are quite resilient. The team therefore gets better as it develops, so can do well over a long season (12games+), but might struggle in shorter seasons where the teams that have lots of starting skills tend to do better.

Next things - Fan Factor and rerolls are both essential. Fan Factor is the key to cash flow which is vital for filling out the roster and replacing dead or injured players. Rerolls are particularly important for teams such as Chaos as at the start they have no skill rerolls and no block, so will need team re-rolls for the inevitable double-skulls, double both-down blocks, and the fumbled pickups!

Choosing players - Minotaur - I like the mino in Chaos teams. It fits the flavour and does intimidate opponents. Also big guys can develop slowly, so better to get them in early and get them a skill or two before they have to come in as rookies against experienced opponents. When it becomes much harder to feed them SPPs.
Beastmen - These are the backbone of the team, its essential that these get skills quickly so that you can develop them into the positionals other teams start out with. You need a couple of ball handlers (first player to roll a double gets Big Hand, then get them SPPs until they can take Sure Hands too - Unmodified 2+ pick-up with a reroll!) You need a couple of sweepers (Block Tackle for taking down pesky catchers, if anyone gets +MA they good players to turn into sweepers). You need a bunch of line Beasts with Guard and Block. You need a couple of hard hitters for causing damage (Claw and Block), and a Dirty Player is useful too. And once you've got all that if you're feeling adventurous you can try and develop a catcher or two (Extra Arms etc). Its important to try and develop more than one beast for each role so you aren't left high and dry if they are injured.
Chaos Warriors - I see them as having two roles, holding the line and protecting the ball. ST 4 on the corners of cages or in the line supported by guards is tough to break down! Good skills are block, guard, tackle, mighty blow etc. But they also have Ag 3 so if you see a chance to give them ball, they make great runners and score touch downs as easily as the Beasts.

Having said all that you need to consider the mix of a starting roster. In a longer season I'd recommend heavy on beastmen light on warriors to start. This stops the Chaos Warriors taking all the SPPs and forces you to play with beastmen. Therefore the Beasts develop. Once the cash is coming in you can fill out with more warriors. These can be developed quite quickly by feeding them touchdowns until they get their first skill, after which they can hold their own in the scrum.
Of your potential rosters I'd say that number 2 is the best with buying priorities of an Apoth, a reserve and then a re-roll.
An alternative roster is the no CW roster. 1 Mino, 10 Beasts, 3 Rerolls, 8 FF. With an Apoth and then a reserve/CW as your buying prioirites. This works better in a long season though.

Hope that helps.

Nethrag · Post by **Nethrag** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 10:38 am

first off - thanks for the reply

I'll have to figure out how long the league will go on for, but to be honest its probably going to depend a lot on peoples continued interest after it starts as like I said this'll be the first time for a lot of us.

With this in mind what are the other "bashy" teams I might want to consider if its a shorter league? (Norse/lizardmen/human I'd have the models for too)

Glad the minotaur gets to play

For the sweepers, after I have someone with Big hands is it worth using a double to get very long legs for a potential sweeper? I was also thinking of pass block. Or should the first double (after big hands) go for a more offensive double like claws etc.

Also is there anywhere where I can get a detailed explanation of what the "cage" is - I can obviously have a guess at the idea but would like some details filled in.

Thanks again.

fen · Post by **fen** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 11:05 am

Hmm, honestly haveing played a lot with Chaos lately. I'd pass on the minotaur early on. He'll take a lot of the Bltizes for your team (and waste 16% of those) while also being rather easy to break.

Get one later on, but you really want the Beastmen and Chaos Warriors in place first.

I pretty much hate my minotaur, love the mini - hate the player (each one I've had over my teams career has been a giant disappointment, taking a long time to develop, wasting actions and dying just when they start to get good.)

And don't skimp on the rerolls, you have no skills to help succeed at actions, so those rerolls are all you've got.

In a very long term league I take nothing but beastmen and rerolls/FF to start. Early on Beastmen are good enough, plus a team full of beastmen doesn't provide any obvious targets. A lone Chaos Warrior draws a lot of heat (which is sometimes a good thing as they can take it pretty well.)

I like the setup 1, but with no minotaur and 1 more beastman (rest into FF.)

Kaiowas · Post by **Kaiowas** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 1:08 pm

From Fumbbl experience, Mino's are a last thing to buy sort of thing.... sure they draw attention but without the necessary skills they will end up on their back end of turn 1 and take 4 turns to get up....

Nethrag · Post by **Nethrag** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:03 pm

awww really? But he looks so cool grumble grumble....lol

what do you mean he wastes 16% of the blitz's?
I didn't think he was a bone head? Or are those the chances of him ending up on his back during a frenzy 2dice block or something?

Are we suggesting a 10 Beastman, 1 Chaos warrior, 3 reroll 9 fan factor team then?

I can see how eventually the beastman can be really good, but aren't I going to be down too much to everyone to begin with to get off the ground?

Kheldar · Post by **Kheldar** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 3:23 pm

Nethrag wrote:awww really? But he looks so cool grumble grumble....lol

what do you mean he wastes 16% of the blitz's?
I didn't think he was a bone head? Or are those the chances of him ending up on his back during a frenzy 2dice block or something?

Are we suggesting a 10 Beastman, 1 Chaos warrior, 3 reroll 9 fan factor team then?

I can see how eventually the beastman can be really good, but aren't I going to be down too much to everyone to begin with to get off the ground?

Thats exactly the roster I would recommend. It gives you one player to take hits, 10 hard workers and enough rerolls to not have arly turnovers. But you should still use them wisely, not wasting the rr on last action fails.

The 16% are the chance that the mino is not going to blitz, because of his wild animal skill.

As I started playing Bloodbowl I started with your version 3 team. I had a lot of luck, and kicked a lot of my opponents. But in the long term the above stated starting roster would have been wiser.

Get an apo next, and then another Beastman, or CW if enough money is available. Then get the rest of the CWs.

mlindsay2706 · Post by **mlindsay2706** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 4:19 pm

Nethrag wrote:I can see how eventually the beastman can be really good, but aren't I going to be down too much to everyone to begin with to get off the ground?

Thats Chaos mate. Your gona have to play hard and good to win the first few games.

That 10 beast 1 CW 3 re-roll 9 FF is the best roster. How many games you gona play in your league?

Btw Welcome the the wonderfull (+ violent) world of bloodbowl! and to the forum

fen · Post by **fen** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:02 pm

Nethrag wrote:awww really? But he looks so cool grumble grumble....lol

what do you mean he wastes 16% of the blitz's?

Yeah I know, I like the GW minotaur minis, but looks ain't 100% of the package.

And as said above, the 16% is the 1/6 chance that he'll just roar and Wild Animal out when you want him to Blitz. In a team that's so good at blitzing anyway (ST4 Blitzes across the board, mmm) he's actually one of the worst to blitz with. And he's pretty bad at any other kind of action (apart from Blocks)

I mostly use my mino as a Crowdpush threat and try to keep him involved in block actions (which is tough because he tends to either get dodged away from, or knocked on his ass.)

Just get used to the Mino looking cool while standing (or laying on his back) alone on the pitch and you'll be fine.

Urb · Post by **Urb** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:17 pm

Has anyone played chaos using vault rules for any length of time? I'm about to head into an all bash mini league (dwarf, norse, necros and myself as chaos) and I'm trying to work out the balance of assigning block, gaurd claw and standfirm. I really think standfirm is a real winner here. I'm starting to value a gaurd standfirm combo over block but I would like to hear what others have to say.

First doubles on a beast is leap... for obvious reasons.

btw.. hate the mino. You have access to 4 reliable str guys. Adding a random element can't be good for the win percentage but if you can manage the failed actions that's great.

fen · Post by **fen** » Tue Jun 06, 2006 7:37 pm

Urb wrote:Has anyone played chaos using vault rules for any length of time?

29 Games with Chaos so far. 21 Won, 3 Lost, 5 drawn. But it's been a bitter tale.

Ok things I learnt along the way.

Borak is the top Chaos Star Player, Borak + Ripper is better than any other Star Player Combo. Do remember Extra Apoths against other bashing sides, the Wizard is freaking ace.

If it's a long term league, don't take any Chaos Warriors to start (or delibrately avoid skilling them up) The beastmen tend to get injured quite a bit more than they used to and there's a high turnover rate on them. Chaos Warriors on the other hand can weather a lot of fire just fine.

Block, Guard, Stand Firm, PO, MB, Tackle are the mainstays of my team. Well they would be if I didn't keep rolling ST increases...

Best two initial (non-double) skills for the minotaur are Piling On and Claw (I did this with a Rat Ogre and OMG...) Switch the order of those dependant on the AV of other teams in the league.

Ball Handling beastmen are ace. You want at least one with Extra Arms asap. He's really useful for skilling up other Beastmen as you can throw quick passes to him on a 3+, 2+. Mine sadly died recently (to a thrown rock) but he was Extra Arms, Sure Hands, Block.

This is how my roster looks atm.
Chaos Warrior - +ST, Block, Dodge
Chaos Warrior - Block, Jump Up (set up for Piling On, plus it's just plain good stuff)
Chaos Warrior - Block, Guard, Mighty Blow (league casualty leader)
Chaos Warrior - Block, +ST
Beastman - +ST, Block, -AG
BM - +ST, Block, -AV
BM - +ST
2 BM - Block, Guard (Stand Firm next for these boys)
1 BM - Block, Tackle
1 BM - Kick, AV9 (AV increases are just ace on Beasts, this guy can take so much punishment now)
1 BM - Block -MA
1 BM - Diving Tackle (lot of agile teams in my league)
1 BM
1 Minotaur

Yeah, 15 players. I would have liked to keep a thinner roster. But the Beastmen and Minotaurs get eliminated so often.

Beastmen set ups I'm aiming for include.
Block, Guard, Stand Firm, Foul Appearance
Block, Tackle, MB, PO, Claw (I'd rather have this guy PO than a CW)
Block, Sure Hands, Extra Arms (maybe Pass + Strong Arm if I get lucky, or just Dodge.)
Block, Very Long Legs, Leap, Pass Block, Extra Arms
Block, Very Long Legs, Leap, Strip Ball

As for overall play, it's been a really tough ride so far. I'm outbashed on many fronts and out skilled/AG'd on others. My team hasn't hit it's stride yet and probably won't for another 10-20 Games. You have to be flexible like humans, but you don't have the skills to back it up when you start.

Hope that helps somewhat.

Urb · Post by **Urb** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 4:52 am

Fen, how important do you think FF was with your starting roster? What was your starting roster and if you had to try again what would you go with?

I was thinking for LRB5

1 warrior
10 beastmen

4 rr's

Leaving 20k for ff or banking it...

Fronko · Post by **Fronko** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:31 am

Nethrag: There is one thing I feel, you should know: Playing chaos as your very first team can be a bit disheartening. Chaos requires a lot of experience and insight to the finer aspects of teh game (position play, blocking sequence/setup, strength management, etc.). It can be very hard to start without any skills. So, if you are really intent on going with chaos, that is alright - do, what your gut feeling tells you. But expect losses. I never really got into what a chaos team is all about, but I am more of an agility based player anyway, so perhaps it is just me. But still, dont get too disappointed, if you cant manage to haul in vixctories, okay?

fen · Post by **fen** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:50 am

Urb wrote:Fen, how important do you think FF was with your starting roster? What was your starting roster and if you had to try again what would you go with?

I started with (1100K)
4 Chaos Warriors 400K
7 Beastman 420K
0 FF
4 RR 280K (70K Rerolls, they're 60K now)

And I learnt from that, my beastmen suffered for a long time becuase the Chaos Warriors became SPP hogs (I got them Block quickly and then it was just to tempting to use them for eveything, especially as ball carriers against stupid Wardancers.) I'd only front load so many Chaos Warriors in a limited game league, then again I'd never play Chaos in a limited game league so that's a bit moot.

I'd now start with either.
1 Warrior 100K
10 BM 600K
4 RR 240K
3/4 FF (Enough to have a shot at +1FAME except against FF frontloaders) 30/40K
rest banked towards second Chaos Warrior 20K/30K

Or 11 BM 600K
5 RR 300K
Rest split between FF and Treasury (100K), I might go FF5
Bank 50K. (I'd rather have that 12th man above an apoth early on as at least a couple of the beastmen have to be retired under this set up.)

A really confident variation of that is to take FF9. Gives you a good shot at +2FAME (for 20K) but if you lose a lot early on then you're basically throwing money away. On the other hand, get +2Fame for a couple of starting matches and it pays for itself fast.

I LOVE how the 60K rerolls actually provide a balanced looking initial Chaos team now.

Any FF above 6/7 seems pointless except for reroll denial strategies/Stunty teams. But if you feel you're going to win a lot of matches you can go for more. My FF is stuck hovering between 6/7 atm, the new 3D6 FF roll hasn't helped me, I roll badly on wins/draws.

I'm at 5 Rerolls with my Chaos team and I've found that's enough once they're skilled up. I very rarely feel like I need a 6th one and I'm trying to reduce my team value growth by only improving players/FF atm.

Nethrag · Post by **Nethrag** » Wed Jun 07, 2006 8:51 am

I think I must have missed some of the rules of Wild Animal - in my book I thought all it did was that you had to do his action first and if there was an adacent player you had to either block or blitz (so if there's an adacent player I can just block and use a beastman for a blitz). What am I missing? Is it just that the mino will be on his back a lot of the time and so if theres an adacent player will have to blitz?

Hmmmm, I'm starting to think another team might be my best option...

Can someone tell me what would be a decent, more tactically forgiving, bashy team?