Chaos development

stormmaster1 · Post by **stormmaster1** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 9:43 am

I find block across the board can be very boring and easy to play against on chaos teams. I'd mix it up a bit and give some guard (especially on the Warriors), some tackle (block won't help get blodging players down, although this is less of a problem in your league) and 1 kick, 1 dirty player. You could even start getting a few mighty blow/claw before block if you want a more high risk high reward approach. i'm not saying don't get block, but without some guard you may struggle against a dwarf side if they get 3-4 guards.

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 10:20 am

I agree with ianwilliams (and others). The last thing you want to do IMO is take Sure Hands or Extra Arms at this stage, especially if you have 4 re-rolls. The main advantage of a Chaos team is that everyone has vanilla AG3 and roughly the same MV, so you can direct your SPPs where they are most needed.

Making one chap a no-brain ball carrier only makes him a SPP hog, and believe me Beastmen don't live that long so that is often a waste. You may think you'll just not use the SH player, but there is always a reason for to do so. Wide or shallow kick, re-roll used etc. But good positioning can always overcome these problems.

stormmaster1 · Post by **stormmaster1** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:36 pm

agree with Nazgit, but after a block beatman gets another skill, sure hands becomes more of an option if you worry about strip ballers. Just don't skimp on the guard. It is the most effective bashing skill, and will make life especially difficult for your norse opponents.

Urb · Post by **Urb** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:56 pm

Now that I have some block on my team I'll be considering gaurd, extra arms and kick as my next skills. If stripball shows up I'll just kill that player. Hehe. I'm going to go claws as my next skills for my warriors. Helps on both the dwaves and necros. It even helps vs those pesky ulfs of the norse.

I'm really hoping for doubles on a beast so I can get leap.

I'm really happy with my starting roster. Seems to worked out for the best. The 4 rr's have been gold and now with the block I can mainly focus on using the rr's to score with beasts instead of for failed blocks.

The advice and banter has been excellent. I've learned alot and I appreciate it.

fen · Post by **fen** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:26 pm

Nazgit wrote:I believe me Beastmen don't live that long so that is often a waste.

So true... *cries about having the highest player turnover rate in the league*

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Mon Jun 12, 2006 11:37 pm

Urb wrote:I'm going to go claws as my next skills for my warriors. Helps on both the dwaves and necros. It even helps vs those pesky ulfs of the norse.

It seems strange to say, but Mighty Blow is actually better than Claw, even against AV9:

P(cas with MB) = 0.09
P(cas with Claw) = 0.07

... and against less than AV9 it is much better.

Urb · Post by **Urb** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:20 am

I believe it. It's a descision I've been wrestling with. I love statistics. ok you have convinced me. MB on the warriors then. I'll get claw as thier 3rd skill and PO if I the league runs that long.

I feel bad for the dwarves. He's newest player of us .. about a years play time and the other 2 claw teams are rather experienced. I believe the norse player has been playing since 2nd ed.

shagga · Post by **shagga** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 12:34 am

I tend not to bother with kick on slow moving teams to be honest. On my orc team I gave kick to a Block/Guard lineman a fair way into the teams career but it hasn't made much if any impact. For me you're better off building a block, guard lineup with the slow pounding drives in mind unless you're lucky enough to get a +ag beastman then you can develop more of a passing game. I think block on the majority of players was a smart move especially given it gives you the chance to blitz some big guys (who are unlikely to get block for a while) with 1 assist, a 1 die block gives you a 50-50 chance of the put down followed quickly by the gang foul.

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 4:51 am

TuernRedvenom wrote:In short I don't see any reason to take wrestle on a chaos team, block is just better I think, but maybe I'm missing something here.

The way I see it there are 3 skills - tackle, wrestle & strip ball - which are used by blitzers to increase the chance of either to making a hole and/or get the ball loose.

Tackle is only of value against dodge. Strip Ball against ball carriers without sure hands. So wrestle would be useful against Block/Sure Hands ball carriers.

stormmaster1 · Post by **stormmaster1** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:13 am

I'd say claw is better vs AV9, just because you will break armour more, so although a few less casualties, your opponents AV9 players spend more time face down in the mud. This is soooo useful vs dwarves as any stunned longbeard won't move far for 2 turns.

TuernRedvenom · Post by **TuernRedvenom** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:31 am

ianwilliams wrote:
TuernRedvenom wrote:In short I don't see any reason to take wrestle on a chaos team, block is just better I think, but maybe I'm missing something here.
The way I see it there are 3 skills - tackle, wrestle & strip ball - which are used by blitzers to increase the chance of either to making a hole and/or get the ball loose.

Tackle is only of value against dodge. Strip Ball against ball carriers without sure hands. So wrestle would be useful against Block/Sure Hands ball carriers.

Ok, I already realised that, but you want your guy that will try to get the bal loose to be mobile to be efficient giving him stuff like 2 heads, leap/VLL, +MA,... This will make him stand out and thus be a target ( with leap/VLL he would be my nr 1 target) which begs the question whether one is gutsy enough to wrestle with such a player only to get the ball loose and face the boot. Looking at the cas rates in eg our league where many a young, promising player has died a brutal death I wouldn't risk it since you'll usually get 2-die blocks on the blitz due to horns anyway.

fen · Post by **fen** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:01 am

Tuern has nailed on the head the reasons why I wouldn't take Wrestle on such a player. He's a 4 skill beastman at least, I don't want to use those guys in such dangerous manuvers as skilling up rookie beastmen later on is an absolute pain.

Naz's workings out on Claw vs MB are quite right (from my experiences, rather than any attempts to run the numbers), Claw becomes effective when tied to MB. Block + MB is the better way to initially get those casualties. Especially considering the composition of your small league (Norse + Necro have few AV9 players between them.)
The league leader for casualties in our league is a Chaos Warrior with Block, MB and Guard. He's nearly double the Casualties of other players with just Claw (including a Snow Troll who rolled 2 doubles, a CD Blocker with just Claw and a Stormvermin with Claw.)
In fact all of the guys with Block + MB are doing better than the rest (apart from one inexplicable High Elf lineman who's caused about 8 Casualites and all he has is Block, Dodge + Side Step.)

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:10 am

Claw is actually the worst damage causing skill, after Block, MB and Piling On. I have had players with Claw, including two Chaos Dwarfs with the skill, but my highest casualty rate came from a Human blitzer with Block, Tackle, Mighty Blow & Piling On.

fen · Post by **fen** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 9:26 am

Yeah, those boys (their Orc versions and any other high movement GS players) are pretty damn frightening. They get set up a lot faster than anyone else also (due to being TD scoring positionals in addition to bashers.)

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Tue Jun 13, 2006 11:28 am

TuernRedvenom wrote:Ok, I already realised that, but you want your guy that will try to get the bal loose to be mobile to be efficient giving him stuff like 2 heads, leap/VLL, +MA,... This will make him stand out and thus be a target ( with leap/VLL he would be my nr 1 target) which begs the question whether one is gutsy enough to wrestle with such a player only to get the ball loose and face the boot. Looking at the cas rates in eg our league where many a young, promising player has died a brutal death I wouldn't risk it since you'll usually get 2-die blocks on the blitz due to horns anyway.

I'd have thought a couple of tackle/wrestle Beasties would be pretty useful players to have as sweepers. The whole jumping into the cage I'll leave to the AG4 guys