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Weather is Blizzard
Scatter Ball ... Ball is going to land on top of one of your players
Resolve .. weather changes to Pouring Rain.
Bounce ... ball lands, you get -1 to the catch roll.
This is true with any of the kick-off results.
BUT on page 7: If the ball lands in an empty square it will bounce one more square (see Bouncing Balls on page 13). If the ball lands on a square occupied by a player, the player must try to catch the ball...
So wouldn't it be:
Weather is Blizzard
Scatter Ball ... Ball is going to land on top of one of you players.
Player must make a catch roll.
Resolve... weather changes to pouring Rain.
Bounce wouldn't happen...
I like Xynoks sugegstion that a touchback should only apply if the ball first lands out of the opponent's half. If it scatters out after a dropped catch then the ball should stay where it ends up.
However, I don't think that is the correct rule at present. The ball is definitely still in the air until after the kickoff result is resolved, but I don't think touchbacks are resolved until the ball finally comes to rest either on the ground, off the field or in someone's hands..
The ball doesn't LAND on your Player until AFTER the Kick-Off is resolved (Weather in your example).
The scatter roll and ensuing movement of the ball represents BOTH distance AND Hang Time...they KEY is Hang Time. When the Kick-Off is resolved (as the ball sails overhead), the ball then comes down and LANDS...if it is an empty square, it bounces once; if it bounces out of bounds, it is a Touchback (put a little too much on it). If it LANDS on a Player, they make a play on it; it they catch it, great...if not, they'll have to try and pick it up.
My point in this thread (among others) is that if the ball lands on a Player, a Touchback should be impossible. A Touchback should ONLY happen if the ball LANDS (bounces) out of bounds, or LANDS (bounces) on any OTHER illegal target (Kicking Teams Half). Once the ball LANDS on a LEGAL Target (ie hits a receiving Player, or comes to rest on an empty space on Receiving Team's Half), no Touchback should be possible.
I realize this isn't American Football, but in that game, once the ball hits you, it is a LIVE ball...on a Kick-Off, if the ball hits the fielding Player and he muffs the catch causing the ball to go out of bounds, NO penalty is awarded. However, if the ball LANDS out of bounds (ie Player couldn't possibly make a play on it), a Penalty IS awarded.
I see what you're saying Xynox, and on the whole I agree with you. However, there is an argument for the failed-catch-that-bounces-out being a touchback. Consider this situation:
The receiving coach has a zombie on the sideline, which the kickoff scatters right on top of. The zombie fails to catch the ball (of course). No reroll is possible for this catch roll, since it isn't the receiving coach's turn yet. So the ball scatters out of bounds. If it isn't a touchback, then the ball has a 1 in 3 chance of being thrown into the kicker's side of the field if this happens then suddenly, without any opportunity to 'play the ball', the receiving coach has lost possession without even starting their turn.
This might not be a very likely situation to occur (and honestly, how many coaches set their players up next to the sidelines anyway?), but it demonstrates that when it does occur it takes away the ability to play the ball from the receiving coach - since their turn hasn't even started yet.
I agree, this shouldn't be a touchback. I fthe player can't catch the ball, tough, deal with the situation of your own causing.
Reason:''
Currently an ex-Blood Bowl coach, most likely to be found dying to Armoured Skeletons in the frozen ruins of Felstad, or bleeding into the arena sands of Rome or burning rubber for Mars' entertainment.
You shouldn't put players next to the sideline or in the endzone if you want to avoid it. The only way your example makes me lean towards calling a Touchback is in regard to the LOS. You HAVE to put 3 Players on the LOS; if a kick scatters and/or bounces to one of these players, they fail the catch, and it ends up on the kicking team's side, I can see the argument. Still, I'm just as inclined to accept the argument that it was simply a VERY GOOD kick and forced the player into a very bad situation that is likely to fail miserably. Indeed, I am more inclined to that argument.
For one thing, you would be INSANE to attempt to get the ball into that specific of an area without the Kick skill. You SHOULD be rewarded for such an outstanding kick, because you are taking an ENORMOUS chance at causing a Touchback. When your opponent doesn't even have to ATTEMPT to pick up the ball, not to mention automatically getting it into the hands of the best player on the field, tell me...is that HUGE?? Of course it is. Touchbacks are enormous. If you want to take the chance of putting the ball into position to force a player into a bad situation, you SHOULD be rewarded for it.
I absolutely disagree with you. If you put your players in bad formations, that is YOUR fault. Likewise, if I have the balls (and the skills) to risk a Touchback in order to put the ball in a more favorable position, I shouldn't be punished. If it were a SIMPLE matter of directly kicking to the players on the LOS, I could see your point. However, even WITH the Kick skill, it is an ENORMOUS risk.
I agree with you, it would be a pretty crazy tactic to pursue. But it was more the problem that it could happen if the ball just scattered accidentally to someone on the sideline.
Of course, this can easily be remidied by not putting your players on the sideline, so its not much of an objection.
Bevan wrote:I like Xynoks sugegstion that a touchback should only apply if the ball first lands out of the opponent's half. If it scatters out after a dropped catch then the ball should stay where it ends up.
However, I don't think that is the correct rule at present. The ball is definitely still in the air until after the kickoff result is resolved, but I don't think touchbacks are resolved until the ball finally comes to rest either on the ground, off the field or in someone's hands..
Bevan as usual has it right. Two very basic things to understand.
1) The ball is IN THE AIR until AFTER the kickoff is FULLY resolved.
2) Touchbacks are NOT resolved until the ball comes to rest.
Yes, I already covered that with a very clear explanation.
The issue is if a TB is awarded if the ball lands on a Player who fails to catch it, resulting in the failed catch scattering the ball out of bounds or onto the kicking team's side.
I say since the ball LANDED in a LEGAL space (ie said player), no TB should be awarded. Please see the rest of the post for further explanation.
I don't know how this sits with official rulings, but we play a simple rule to avoid confusion.
If the ball lands out or in the kicking teams half before the normal turn sequence starts, then a touchback is awarded. This keeps things simple, rather than having to argue about what the exact wording should be of each sentence.
So in the case of a blitz action, the ball hasn't really "landed" (however you want to interpret that) until the regular turn sequence starts, upon which you give it to the player you want.
As I said, it keeps it simple which is good, and means you don't have to worry about things like when the kick is considered "out".
Reason:''
Memo to myself:
- Do the dumb things I gotta do
- Touch the puppet head
Xynok wrote:Yes, I already covered that with a very clear explanation.
The issue is if a TB is awarded if the ball lands on a Player who fails to catch it, resulting in the failed catch scattering the ball out of bounds or onto the kicking team's side.
I say since the ball LANDED in a LEGAL space (ie said player), no TB should be awarded. Please see the rest of the post for further explanation.
What is the official ruling?
Xynox ..... come to rest means come to rest. The touchback sequence is not resolved until the ball comes to rest. This includes the ball landing in a square, the player failing the catch roll, and it scattering out of bounds or into the opponent's side. Offical Ruling = If the ball COMES TO REST from the kickoff sequence and is not in a square on the receiving side of the pitch. Its a touchback. Not doubt in my mind that this is the correct answer.
We played around with alternate touchback rules a lot like what have been suggested. After 4 seasons they never really mattered. Now we just use the "if it's out when it stops it's a touchback" rule and get on with our lives.
Reason:''
Marcus - [url=http://www.talkbloodbowl.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=42448#42448]Hall of Famer[/url] - [url=http://www.irwilliams.com/ecbbl/index.php]Edinboro Castle Blood Bowl League[/url]
Galak whilst the letter of the rules discounts Xynox's interpretation, I feel that as a house rule the idea has merit. It can for the right teams encourage far more aggressive defence. A kicking team playing the ball so that it drops close to the LOS where pickups and catches are under pressure of TZs, with the offchance that this pressure might spill the ball straight back to the kickers. I can see that this could lead to quite exciting games, and so should be given further thought before disregarded out of hand.
