Illegal Formations?

[Xynok]

I understand what you are driving at, but those comparisons simply do not work, because they aren't the same thing. If I see you are moving too much, rolling too many dice, blah, blah, blah, I can IMMEDIATELY call you on it and make you do it correctly. If I FAIL to notice, you simply get away with it. Once I DO notice, you better play correctly or there is going to be a problem. There is no House Rule, etc. needed...you are simply cheating, so STOP. Entirely different. Entirely.

This is a UNIQUE situation, because once I get away with it, there is NOTHING that can be done about it EXCEPT to make a House Rule to cover it, especially if it is noticed there are too many players on the field in the middle of a turn (again, intentional or NOT). Likewise, if all you have to do is reset an illegal formation, how long is it going to take you to get the hang of it THAT way vs. if you have to keep losing RRs or giving them to your opponent? There is NO WAY someone would intentionally try this at the cost of losing/giving RRs, etc.

I understand this adds an extra A-Hole element to the game, but I feel this is *much* better than giving potential cheaters ANY kind of exploit; it is simply too easy to say "Oops, sorry." Perhaps it WAS an honest mistake, but then again, perhaps it WASN'T.

Again, I take GREAT PAINS to keep people honest, and I NEVER cheat at ANY game I play. However, when something inherent in the RULES leads to either 1) Cheating (intentional or not), or 2) Making up a House Rule to prevent cheating, SOMETHING needs to be done. There needs to be an official rule on this, in MY opinion.

[Darkson]

We always rolled a dice to randomly remove a player and if they dropped the ball it's a TO. We had one player start a drive with 15 players as he'd left them on the EZ line while he set up and forgot to remove them. His oppo didn't notice and they only discovered the error when he went to move one of the to pick up the ball. They rolled to see who left and the whole of his LOS left the pitch.

To get back on thread, if you notice a player is continually "accidently setting up wrong/too many players take them aside and have a word. If they still do it, give the a verbal warningie in front of the other coaches. If they still insist on doing it it's time to say goodbye.

[Deathwing]

Xynok, I'm still failing to see what you're getting at ( other than hasn't been addressed already).

Do you want an addition to the LRB vis-a-vis "What happens if we suddenly notice that one team has 12 players on the field?"...
...or do you want an addition to be LRB to actively discourage players from trying to deliberately attempt to cheat via illegal set-ups?

[Xynok]

Do you want an addition to the LRB vis-a-vis "What happens if we suddenly notice that one team has 12 players on the field?"...

I think this should be officially addressed, either via Turnover, or other such rule (ie how/who do you remove from the pitch?) Otherwise, it is something that MUST be House Ruled, because it WILL happen (intentionally or not).


...or do you want an addition to be LRB to actively discourage players from trying to deliberately attempt to cheat via illegal set-ups?

Again, I feel there should be SOME penalty here in order to actively discourage it, beyond simply "reset your players."

[Deathwing]

Ok, the first point I can see where you're at.

The second point is simply irrelevent, and addressed by simple common sense, and individual commishes/gaming groups applying it. I've played BB competitively in different countries against opponents of several different nationalities, and it's something that's never even crossed my mind before this thread. There is absolutely no case whatsoever for proposals for rule additions based on highly unlikely and totally hypothetical situations that any adult should be able to deal with.
Persistant and deliberate cheating is a 'real life' issue, introducing legislation into the LRB to discourage such practices is completely unnecessary, and what's more it'd be a dark day indeed if it ever was.

[Joaquim]

Not every punishment must come from LRB... if the other coach takes his time, during the match, splitting beer all over the field... well, I would think twice before calling him to another game!!! Not even putting the field under a glass would solve, because some of my figs are painted, badly (worst, I should say), but painted by me with great effort..!..

This happen, I know (setting up wrong, beer could happens too, but I've been avoiding it...).... here what we do is: reset if before kick-off. if after the other coach picks the lineman to get out....

Of course this rules take the assumption there wasn't cheating intention, because the punishment for cheating isn't in the LRB....
Cheating just spoils the game, from everyone, even the cheater... so, there is no point in playing, period.

Even in PC games I don't like to hear about cheat codes: the temptaion can become too great and the game is ruined....

[longfang]

Simple solution.......write a code of conduct.

[Marcus]

There needs to be an official rule on this, in MY opinion.

There is. In the old 3rd ed manual Jervis specifically stated in his afterword that there are no specific rules to cover cheating coaches. The idea is that it's in the hands of the commish. If your opponent does it in a league, get the commish's ruling. In a tournament, ask the judge. In a 1 on 1 friendly, well, settle it out in the car park.

In our league myself and Ian came up with a simple rule. No-one in our league would try to cheat but we wanted to ensure there was a penalty involved so we can keep the game moving. I suggest you do the same in your own league.

[Dinaturz]

In my group the compromise was:
first time: just go back and change the formation,
second time: call an illegal procedure and change formation,
third time: opponent coach turns the chainsaw on...

[Mestari]

Up to commish in my opinion.

I once ruled this to be a perfectly legitimate tactic. If you get caught, a random player is sent off in addition to a TO.

Why there is no problem in this?

BECAUSE: everyone counted the opponents players when the kick-off had already been made, thus getting one player sent off for free and getting an easy TO if the other coach had cheated. Thus no-body wanted to put extra players on pitch, as it was practically certain that the other coach will notice. It's simple, definitely doesn't encourage cheating as the risk-reward ratio is awful, and it fits the fluff too.

[McDeth]

As difficult as it is to find good opponents to play against up here, if someone repeatedly blatantly tried this tactic, then it would be even 1 less player to play against. I play for fun not to continually have to police the game as well.

[McDeth]

Add another thought

if someone did this in PBEM, how long would the game take then.

imagine about 4 e-mails before you've even kicked off. ARGGGGGH

[JackDragna]

It's not an option: your setup must follow the rules. Likewise, when a player moves 6, he gets to move 6 without goforits..no more, no less. I think we've become so accustomed to the concept of 'illegal procedure' that people think every facet of the game is up to the opponent to enforce. It's not. There are baseline rules of the game that are inflexible and trying to break them is cheating. Period.

[Xynok]

We DO have a rule for this, and it goes as follows:

Illegal formations called before Kick-Off:

Calling Coach receives 1 Team RR.
Offending Coach Resets to a Legal formation.


Too many Players on the field after KO, during any turn:

Calling Coach receives 1 Team RR.
Offending Coach loses a RANDOM Player from the pitch (roll appropriate die).


It was easy for us to House Rule this, because we already have a House Rule that covers IP very nicely (ie opponent gains a free team RR). We agree that IP shouldn't cause TOs, because it isn't fun (and is ridiculous, frankly). Giving your opponent a free Team RR is penalty enough. This applies to turning the Turn Marker, and in the case of Wild Animal, the WA MUST take his action IMMEDIATELY when IP is called (this helps WA balancing tremendously; we feel NO skill should DIRECTLY cause a TO, and WA is bad enough as it is).

I understand that all of this ultimately falls under the category of "you can't really offically rule against cheater Coaches," but I feel any element that ultimately MUST have a House Rule should at least be mentioned, primarily for new Players (Coaches, Commish, etc). To the point, if you have never thought of this before (as a new player, etc), and it suddenly comes up during a game, isn't it better to ALREADY have a rule in place (ie it has at least been mentioned in the rules, so perhaps we should address it), then to bog down a game discussing it and possibly get tempers flaming, etc? Just my thoughts.

[Remco]

Xynox, about your IP house rule: what happens if the coaches already have enough re-rolls? If in your league someone discovers the illegal setup in turn 4 and has 4 RR's on the dugout, do you still give him the extra RR or does the other coach loses one?