Defender stumbles..."use dodge"?

valedictor · Post by **valedictor** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 1:27 am

Hi all,

I haven't played for about two years now, and recently found the time to rediscover the game a bit.

I have had a flick through the new LRB to get myself up to date with developments. I didn't get very far before I got confused by several things.

For example, in the blocking rules, on a "defender stumbles" result, it says "If he does use the Dodge skill then he is only pushed back". What does that mean exactly? Does it mean that if someone blocks my player and gets defender stumbles, I then have to make a dodge roll? Or do I just have to possess the dodge skill? I don't remember how this used to work a few years ago... wasn't it then just a case of having the dodge skill and not having to use it? What do I have to do now then?

Cheers, John.

valedictor · Post by **valedictor** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 1:57 am

Oh, no hang on a minute...having the dodge skill just means being able to reroll a failed dodge roll doesn't it? Plus affecting the block result "if used" (looking at the dodge skill description now).

Thing is, I don't follow the wording in the blocking rules, and the description of the dodge skill in the skills section just refers the reader back to the blocking rules which have already confused me...

What's this whole deal with the "if used" wording? This is what's confusing me.

Is there now no difference between possessing a skill and using it? Or am I just being slow off the mark here? I'm a bit worried at being stumped after just trying to relearn the most basic of rules... either my IQ has gone down sharply in 24 months of inactivity, or the wording is actually confusing...

John

valedictor · Post by **valedictor** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 2:13 am

Aha, waitaminute...I think I've got it...

The blocked player gets to choose if he wants the dodge skill to have an affect - right? Because sometimes he might not want to.

So then, I just have to tell the blocking player if want my dodge skill to be considered when I am stumbling?

If this is so, then wouldn't it be an idea to explain this use of the dodge skill in the blocking rules rather than just saying "if used" ?

Or describe this method of usage in the dodge skill description, rather than just referring it back to the blocking rules?

John.

Cramy · Post by **Cramy** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:14 am

Welcome back to the game.

If you look at page 14 of LRB5 under the Skills section, in one of the paragraphs it states:

"Many players have skills such as catch, pass etc. Unless stated
otherwise in the skill description you never have to use a skill just
because the playerâ€™s got it, and you can choose to use a skill
that affects a dice roll after rolling the dice. For example, you
could say you were going to use the Catch skill either before or
after making a Catch D6 roll."

The use of a skill is optional unless stated otherwise. So when the blocking coach rolls a "defender stumbles" result, and the blockee has dodge, the blockee can chose to use his dodge skill and keep standing, or not use the dodge skill and fall down, as you have determined already.

An example of not using dodge is when your opponent has set you up for a chain-push into the crowd. If you stay up, he will be able to block you again (via Frenzy, or another player) and chances are that you will be crowd surfing. It may be better to fall on the ground and avoid the surfing.

So the logic is reverse from what you are suggesting for the rules. If the use of a skill is mandatory, then it is stated in the skill description. Frenzy is an example of a skill that is mandatory.

Hope this helps.

valedictor · Post by **valedictor** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 11:33 am

Hi Cramy,

Thanks for that,

Yes, I kinda figured that out eventually... part of the problem I had was that I was trying to read the huge document on a very slow old computer, and it was difficult and slow to scan backwards and forwards to read all the bits I needed to, so I missed that paragraph. But...

That paragraph you quoted only explains the optional aspect of using a skill; it doesn't tell me how to use certain skills in optional situations.

The blocking section offers no explanation of how dodge is used either. It just tells me that my player can stay on his feet 'if' the dodge skill is used.

And in the dodge skill description itself, as I mentioned previously, it only refers that aspect of using the rule back to the blocking section, rather than explain how one can use it when being blocked.

Basically, I can't thus far find a section that explains that aspect of the dodging skill and how it is used. Making dodging rolls is explained with perfect clarity, but not this aspect as far as I can see.

This use of 'if used' is what causes the problem for me. What might I ask was the reason for changing it from "if the player has the dodge skill"? (wasn't that roughly what the wording used to be?). If it were to still say 'has' rather than "use", one can easily assume that dodge has this effect, and need look no further for clarification. But when the word 'use' is used, then without a clear explanation of how it is used in this way, confusion can creep in, especially because the dodge skill can be used in alternative ways in the game and it is not then clear which of these ways is to be employed.

All I know is that I never got confused when learning this game rule back in the mid 90's nor needed to flick back and forth to try and find a clear explanation. This change of wording seems a little unneccesary, to me at least, when it was so very clearly worded before. I asked two of my housemates (one an ex-player and also my wife who has played before and is a part- time proof-reader) and they were both similarly confused, although we did all manage to come to the same assumption (eventually).

Much better as it was! But never mind. More important things to be relearning than worrying about wording.

Thanks, John.

Mordredd · Post by **Mordredd** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 12:45 pm

It was changed because "if the player has the dodge skill" strongly implies that the player has no choice but to use it when getting blocked. But "the powers that be" (for want of a better tag) decided that a coach was meant to have the option of being knocked down; hence the change to "if used".

Personally I think that it is fairly self explanatory. You "declare the use of the skill" and then "you don't fall over" (in the same way that you "declare the use of stand firm" and then "you don't get pushed back").

Xeterog · Post by **Xeterog** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:48 pm

There is no roll to use dodge when being blocked. So, if you use dodge you remain standing when a 'defender stumbles' result is chosen. The blocking rules are saying that all you have to do is say, "I'm using/not using dodge" for the Defenders stumbles results. Nothing more is needed than to say you are using your dodge skill or not, so nothing more is said about it than "...if you use dodge..."

valedictor · Post by **valedictor** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 4:15 pm

Well I agree that 'if he has the dodge skill' just by itself does incorrectly suggest that it must be used each time.

Which is why I think it needs to be worded better than that

Just saying 'if he uses the dodge skill" does then suggest that the player does not have to use it. This is fine. But it still doesn't explain how dodge is used in this circumstance. This to me is not wording it better. It covers the optional usage, yes, but doesn't go any further than that.

As you said yourself, You "declare the use of the skill" and then "you don't fall over". We know this to be true through experience, but it doesn't clearly tell me what I need to do. It just tells me I can 'use' the skill in an unspecified manner in this particular situation. The skill description doesn't say anything about automatically not falling over. It just points back to the blocking rules, which only say the skill can be 'used'...

In references to the dodge skill throughout the rulebook which involve being able to make rerolls, this aspect of the skill is perfectly well explained. However, I can't see a part which has words to the effect 'the dodge skill allows a player to decide if he wants to be pushed back or pushed back and knocked over on a stumble result'. You have to assume this is what happens as far as I can see.

The stand firm example you gave doesn't quite apply, because the description of how that skill works is all there to read in the skill's description, and so no assumption is neccessary there.

I really wouldn't have brought it up if it honestly hadn't foxed all four of us here reading it through several times. I'm really not some sort of horrible rules pedant (honest!) it was just something pertaining to a rather important aspect of the game that both me and my friends were at least temporarily unsure about, and had to post on here to confim it. There wasn't anything else in the rules that looked problematic, so on the whole an absolutely splendid job done by the creative team involved this time around. Well done chaps.

(although why Leader is now a passing skill is..mmm... a bit peculiar may I say? Charismatic blitzers everywhere must be raging in their boots... is this a nod to quarterbacks in American Football or something? I certainly hope not!)

John

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 4:27 pm

LRB p.14: Secondly, the Dodge skill , if used, affects the results rolled with the Block dice (see the rules for Blocks).

LRB p.44: In addition, the Dodge skill, if used, affects the results rolled on the Block dice, as explained in the Blocking rules in the Blood Bowl book.

LRB p.10: DEFENDER STUMBLES: Unless the defender uses the Dodge skill he is pushed back and then Knocked Down. If he does use the Dodge skill then he is only pushed back. The attacking player may follow up the defender.

Taking either of the first 2 in conjuction with p.10, where is it unclear?

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 4:30 pm

valedictor wrote:(although why Leader is now a passing skill is..mmm... a bit peculiar may I say? Charismatic blitzers everywhere must be raging in their boots... is this a nod to quarterbacks in American Football or something? I certainly hope not!)

Because according to Jervis, Traits were to difficult for many to understand, so the skills were changed to all being available on normal rolls. Leader was to powerful for players with normal access to get, so it was put into passing (with a nod to NFL QBs), ignoring the fluff that says the Blitzers are the Leader of BB teams.

valedictor · Post by **valedictor** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 4:57 pm

Because it doesn't tell me how to use the dodge skill in this situation. It just says it can be used.

With stand firm for example, the skill description informs me with perfect clarity the process used to implement the skill in the game.

With dodge, the skill description informs me that I can make rerolls. It also tells me that it can affect the results of the block dice too. It doesn't tell me that all I need to do is declare that I am using or not using it.

There is no clear indication that using dodge to avoid being knocked over is just an automatic thing, reliant only on a declaration from the player that he is using it.

It says I can use the dodge skill,
t says that I can avoid being knocked over if I want.

But by not mentioning inbetween that it involves a declaration, to me, seems to be an oversight. By not providing this information, one has to assume that the process is simply automatic if you want to use the dodge skill. Because there is no mention of declaration in this particular instance, I read the blocking rules, spotted the ' can use the dodge skill' bit, then zoomed down to the dodge skill description, couldn't find any mention of declaration there, and so got stuck!

When one reads 'can use a skill', It suggests that a proceedure exists for how that skill can be used. There is an explanation of how each skill is used in the game. Therefore, when I read 'can use the dodge skill' in the blocking rules, I instantly thought to check for how to use the dodging skill while being blocked in the dodging skill description. (a logical step for a learner to take, I like to think) But the description only explains rerolls, while mentioning that it can be used in blocking. It doesn't tell me how the process works (i.e: that it simply involves a declaration, and no other sort of process).

That's about it really.

John

valedictor · Post by **valedictor** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 5:12 pm

Darkson wrote:[quote="valedictor Because according to Jervis, Traits were to difficult for many to understand, so the skills were changed to all being available on normal rolls. Leader was to powerful for players with normal access to get, so it was put into passing (with a nod to NFL QBs), ignoring the fluff that says the Blitzers are the Leader of BB teams.

Did anyone thing to change the name of the skill from 'Leader' to something more passing orientated then? That way, whatever player, be they a blitzer, thrower or even a kicker could maintain their leader personas from a fluff perspective, avoiding having to ignore the game's heritage.

It could be called 'Vision', or 'Playmaker' or something similar. Something that ties in with the descriptive for Leader, where it says something like they are 'at the back of the field dictating the play' (sorry, I don't have the LRB at hand here for the exact wording). That way the emphasis is on qualities such as awareness and having some time and space with the ball, (or time and space to shout at the rest of the team) rather than emphasising pure leadership / talisman qualities as it did previously.

valedictor · Post by **valedictor** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 5:16 pm

Actually, I am quite enjoying 'playmaker'... not exactly the word I was after, but it sounds cool...

pats himself on shoulder...

valedictor · Post by **valedictor** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 5:31 pm

Bugger..

Just got my pitch down from the loft and it's ripped in half

Hope this isn't a bad omen for matches to come...

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Sat Oct 28, 2006 7:53 pm

Nothing stops your Blitzer from having Leader.

So let's be honest ... despite Darkson's belief otherwise wiping out traits is widely considered a good thing. In LRB 4 ... blitzer didn't get Leader ... linemen did ... which doesn't match up with the fluff either.

At least Leader being a passing skill does link up with NFL quarterbacks who are normally the team leaders.

And Val ... how did you guys figure out how the Block skill worked. It has the same wording as the Dodge skill? Honest question ... no sarcasm.

Galak