Last Poll on Brettonians - please give feedback

[plasmoid]

Hi Ironage man,
just to explain my position, here are the things that I wouldn't mind doing(but which I still would require a playtest reason or feedback from several posters to actually do):

*More expensive rerolls
*Some other way of making the linemen 40K, without getting rid of loner.
*Merging the 2 squire positions into one (but how should it look)

Cheers
Martin

[David Bergkvist]

I get your position. And I guess some share it. I also know for a fact that others prefer the worse-than-hobgoblins linemen, and find them to add Brettonian character to the team. So I can't please everyone with this.

How about making a poll about it? =)

Now, I'm not particularly in love with their AG access.
But it serves a purpose.
We had Brettonian coaches in the MBBL ask why the linemen aren't 30K, until we pointed to the added A access, and they accepted that reply.
So, it keeps the linemen at 40K - without really getting them much. Trust me, they skill up very slowly, and really need at least 1 general skill (block/wrestle) to compensate for loner.

I don't see why you need to accomodate the Bretonnian coaches if you know that 6337 Loner without A access is balanced. They're just attempting to make their teams better any way they can. Just say that "The reason why they are 40k is that 30k would make the team too good. If you don't like it, play another team.".

My problem with removing A access is that I don't want the linemen to be 30K - and as a lot of players on the team are already high-end priced, it would be (IMO) going too far to simply have 6337-loner-G for 40K.

I don't see what the problem with 30k linemen and increasing the cost of the already high-priced positionals (or RRs for that matter) even further. Overpriced positionals would also add to the fluff: The noblemen are clearly overpriced in the eyes of an outsider because they are over-confident and all think that they are the greatest players who have ever entered the BB field (and silence everyone saying they aren't). And the bretonnian feudal society have laws preventing a coach from training a humble peasant into becoming a good player, so the noblemen don't have any competition that drives down their salaries.

PS, David. As you can see, the loner is there to add flavour, and the A is there to not cut the team any price breaks.

I guess the problem here is that I don't think that loner adds flavour. There are a lot of other teams that have linemen that "deserve" loner much more than bretonnian linemen do. So giving the bretonnian linemen loner is just inconsistent with the other teams.

[Rune]

Now, I'm not particularly in love with their AG access.
But it serves a purpose.
We had Brettonian coaches in the MBBL ask why the linemen aren't 30K, until we pointed to the added A access, and they accepted that reply.

I have to agree with David here. They don't need AG access to justify a price of 40k. The player cost formula is just a guide line, not a strict rule. Overall team balance is what counts.

[Snorri]

There are too many positions.

[plasmoid]

Hi all - sorry for the late reply, but I have very limited access to TBB.
David, Rune and Ironage_Man:

David said:
>How about making a poll about it? =)
I sort of did way back in the day (on TBB ).
The poll was whether something less than 6337 would still be human stats, and the majority said yes.

>I don't see why you need to accomodate the Bretonnian coaches if you
>know that 6337 Loner without A access is balanced. They're just
>attempting to make their teams better any way they can. Just say
>that "The reason why they are 40k is that 30k would make the team too
>good. If you don't like it, play another team.".

Well, IMO it is not a balance issue.
Yes - the linemen without A access are balanced.
So are the ones with A access.
I guess it is more about the fluff and the pricing.

And I do partly disagree with just telling them to play another team. You can do that with existing teams, and while you can do it with homemade teams too, you at least (IMO) need to listen to what coaches would want.
Not that you want to hand them a monster - but you want to create a team that will actually appeal to coaches, so that it will go from the roster to the pitch.

>I guess the problem here is that I don't think that loner adds flavour.
>here are a lot of other teams that have linemen that "deserve" loner
>much more than bretonnian linemen do. So giving the bretonnian
>lnemen loner is just inconsistent with the other teams.
Others, including myself, do like the loner.
And I don't think that any other teams linemen deserves it more. Not even hobgoblins.

Rune said:
> have to agree with David here. They don't need AG access to justify a
>price of 40k. The player cost formula is just a guide line, not a strict
>rule. Overall team balance is what counts.
Thing is - the team is balanced.
And I don't agree with tweaked/fluffy pricing, because the new handicap system relies on each player (and not just the team as a whole) being priced reasonably fairly.

That being said:
Thinking about it, I agree that loner is not a big enough disadvantage to warrant a price drop to 30K.
They may not be completely worth 40K, but 30K is too cheap, so 40K is the way to go.
So, while I don't want to cut loner, I'd be comfortable with 6337 loner G 40K.
IMO - it would be another high-end price for the team, and would mean that I would insist on not raising the price of the team reroll.

Cheers
Martin

[Warpstone]

That being said:
Thinking about it, I agree that loner is not a big enough disadvantage to warrant a price drop to 30K.
They may not be completely worth 40K, but 30K is too cheap, so 40K is the way to go.
So, while I don't want to cut loner, I'd be comfortable with 6337 loner G 40K.
IMO - it would be another high-end price for the team, and would mean that I would insist on not raising the price of the team reroll.

I could live with only G access on peasants. Afterall, they're only there to get in the way of the opposition anyway.

I have yet to get a chance to pick more than Block on a peasant before they get SI'd or killed.

[David Bergkvist]

I sort of did way back in the day (on TBB ).
The poll was whether something less than 6337 would still be human stats, and the majority said yes.

That something less than 6337 is still human stats is not the same thing as less than 6337 is more suitable than 6337.

Others, including myself, do like the loner. And I don't think that any other teams linemen deserves it more. Not even hobgoblins.

Why wouldn't hobgoblins deserve loner? The chaos dwarfs are in no way treating them better than bretonnians are threating their peasants. And hobgoblins are, in addition to that, notably stupid according to the fluff, which means it's difficult to train them even if the coach wanted. And what about thralls? They're just there so the vampires can have a snack break, so why would the coach want to train them?

[fen]

And what about thralls? They're just there so the vampires can have a snack break, so why would the coach want to train them?

Leave Thralls out of this. Your comment clearly shows a lack of understanding about how the Thrall works.

It's not a Vampire team, it's a Thrall team that allows Vampires to snack on them.

[Rune]

Why wouldn't hobgoblins deserve loner? The chaos dwarfs are in no way treating them better than bretonnians are threating their peasants. And hobgoblins are, in addition to that, notably stupid according to the fluff, which means it's difficult to train them even if the coach wanted.

Fluff-wise I agree with you, but as I understand it the decision to give them loner is not based only on fluff. The point is (AFAIK) to prevent the peasants to be used for ball-handling and other important tasks. After all, it is the nobles who should receive all the glory. I guess this could also be achieved by lowering their AG, but that has probably been considered already.

[David Bergkvist]

Fluff-wise I agree with you, but as I understand it the decision to give them loner is not based only on fluff. The point is (AFAIK) to prevent the peasants to be used for ball-handling and other important tasks. After all, it is the nobles who should receive all the glory. I guess this could also be achieved by lowering their AG, but that has probably been considered already.

AG 2 was indeed considered already (I've seen this suggestion previously), and I don't like that either, for the same reason as loner: there are many other linemen that deserve AG 2 just as much as bretonnian linemen.

The thing about not handling the ball with peasants can be solved by making sure that the nobles are better at handling the ball than the peasants are.

[TennBoy]

I think the bretonnians suck and nothing about them not being an official team keeps you from modeling them. But no starting positional player should ever start with guard. Ever.

[Bonn]

Fluff-wise I would say, the Chaos Dwarf practice with the Hobos as blocking dummies... So, no matter how dumb they are, they learn how to get away from hard hitting opponents, whereas peasants are not even allowed at practice, maybe except for bringing a glass of wine, or cleaning up the mess.

[plasmoid]

Hi all,
once again sorry for the late reply. The thing is: I only have access to TBB from work, and while there I tend to, well, work.
Better late than never I hope.

David said:
>That something less than 6337 is still human stats is not the same
>thing as
>less than 6337 is more suitable than 6337.
True.
But much as I love to "design by committee", I think that as a designer I have to stick to a few basic principles for the team. And this is one of those.
So, I'm just pointing out that my position doesn't make the linemen un-human.

>Why wouldn't hobgoblins deserve loner? The chaos dwarfs are in no
>way treating them better
>than bretonnians are threating their peasants. And hobgoblins are,
>in addition to that,
>notably stupid according to the fluff,
I disagree.
IMO, hobgoblins are treated like Brettonians treat their squires.
The ball carriers need to be part of team practice.

Brettonian linemen are even less than that. They act as road bumps and blocking dummies. It's not that the nobles hate them - they just prefer not to train with them. And, IMO; this separation in the practice sessions matches up with loner skill rather well.

I agree that the linemen didn't have to have loner from a fluff point of view - but I disagree that it is inappropriate. And I do think that it is part of what makes the team a unique coaching experience.

As for the stupidity thing on hobgobs, IMO, that doesn't translate to anything like loner. More like bone-head.

I honestly think that this loner issue is something we won't agree on.
From experience, I think it makes the team more characterful.
From this teams creation something like 10 years ago, I've wanted to make it clear that peasants and nobles don't play well together. In the first versions, team rerolls were super expensive, and all nobles had pro - but the online community commented that no player should start as a "pro".
So, loner on the linemen became another way to do the same thing.

- and hey, at least I didn't create a new skill, like was done with the vampire team, the loner team and the rotters team.

Tennboy said:
>no starting positional player should ever start with guard. Ever.
You're not the first to say this, but I find that statement utterly nonsensical. Why shouldn't guard starters exist?
I've had playtest with some, and it is quite possible to have them part of a balanced team.
Still...... never mind.
Guard is no longer on the table.

Cheers
Martin

[fen]

Why shouldn't guard starters exist?

Because, bar-non Guard is the most broken skill in the game. It's countered/limited by what? More Guard and attacking the corners of formations, which often doesn't help.

[Lycos]

Ummm, i got the feeling I have found this thread a little late.

I have been playing Brettonians in the ECBBL here in London and I wondered if anyone was interested in how I have found them, what I think, etc etc. This maybe a semi-dead thread.