Bull Centaur...

[C-N]

Yes, on a Chaos Dwarf I'd go for half and half on Side Step and Stand Firm. But I do think I prefer Side Step because it is more unpredictable, especially on a Bashing Team.

And Thadrin, (totally OT, of course), I didn't have any problems with you last season...

[Kamikaze Rudy]

I went with the Stand Firm by the way....

In a game against the Humans, My Bull scored my 3 TD's!!! I felt guilty working him like that when I had 2 Hobbos that needed only a completion to get a skill. But the Hobbo's couldn't do anything right all game long...typical. I ended up winning 3-2 in OT against the Humies, and Ick Voltstomper(Bull Centaur) has 5 TD's in two games.

On the winning TD, my Chaos Dwarves busted a hole in his line and I blitzed his Human Catcher Ball Carrier(his thrower & other catcher were injured) with the bull. He knocked over the catcher, sprinted two more extra spaces and picked up the ball on the sideline. I got one Hobbo to protect him and pretty much boxed in his remaining players. (he was shorthanded all match, my CD's were brutal) Two plays later, Ick scored. The JaeGrünnd Ironfire is 2-0...

Thanks to all that gave advice.

[Babs]

Korhil,

Surprised to hear you say that Dodge is not as good as Standfirm.

While Standfirm may be superior in the 'dodge' scenario, because there is no chance of falling over, I don't think overall it's superior.

Don't forget Dodge makes one less option for the Bull Centaur to be knocked over - ans you know any player with Block/dodge a right royal pain to get over - especially one wit Strength 4!

And don't forget, with Breaktackle, the Bull Centaur's chances of dodging are pretty good. A dodge reroll will ensure most dodges are successful.

The ability to not be hit over with Pow(!) results more than compensates for the occasion you might fall down with a failed dodge. You're more likely to blitz your way out with a Bull Centaur!

So Grumbledook - I applaud your choice. Has the Centaur being carrying his weight on the team?

[Grumbledook]

Well no, people like seem to like playing teams with dwarfs in them, prooving hard to get an opponent. Dunno why over the last few games i lost 2 dwarfs with mighty blow and only have 3 now. Ive only played once since getting him dodge if i am correct it hasn't factored in. I also gave one of my hobbos kick at the same point and i managed bad kick result on the kick off table every time i kicked and resulted in a touchback. Seems that hobbos can't even use their skills properly ;]

[Korhil]

Reguarding Dodge Vs Standfirm on a dbl.

For an AG2 Player, I would rate Standfirm better to be taken on the Dbl.
Essentially the Skill offers an AG2 player 2 abilities that are both great. And with AG2 its skill a Risk to attempt a Dodge based on the Re-Roll provided.

SideStep's ability is better than the relevant Half of StandFirm
Dodge is better than its equalivent half of StandFirm too.

Problem is, there are 2 skills, not 1.
It would take 2 Dbls to get SideStep & Dodge, you cant rely on rolling more Dbls, so Id go with the Skill that covers both in a very acceptable way.

StanFirm is a Trait for a reason.

Thats the simple Logic I apply to this decision.

For an AG3 player, Id prolly go with Dodge, because with AG3 you can take advantage of both parts of Dodge.

---Korhil

[Zombie]

There are two problems in your reasoning:

1. Dodge also has two uses, and one of them is staying up when you get hit. That's better than staying in your square.

2. Bull centaurs usually get break tackle pretty quick, which means they can dodge at 2+.

[Korhil]

Taking Dodge on a dbl for the effect of not being knocked down as much isnt really worth it. If it takes a dbl to get it it means very few of your players will have it. And as every team needs to have a decent number of Tacklers to deal with Elves & Amazons, So it doesnt really save you as much as you would hope.

I dunno how the rest of you play, but if I want to get knock down someone with Dodge, I'll use a Tackler, and against Chaos Dwarfs I'm ensured of having more Tackle than they have Dodge.

Standfirm also means you can Dodge arround before you get Break Tackle. Dodging with AG2 & Dodge isnt something I'd rely on.

[Edit]
Also, assuming that this Dbl was rolled for the first or 2nd skill, you wont be getting BreakTackle til 31SPP... thats ages away]

---Korhil

[Zombie]

Taking Dodge on a dbl for the effect of not being knocked down as much isnt really worth it. If it takes a dbl to get it it means very few of your players will have it. And as every team needs to have a decent number of Tacklers to deal with Elves & Amazons, So it doesnt really save you as much as you would hope.

But you forget that players with tackle are usually equiped to deal with ST2 or ST3 players. The players who deal with ST4 opponents (with either ST4, horns or dauntless) don't take tackle. If he wants to come at me with his tackler on two dice, i choose, that's fine by me.

This is why dodge is great on a ST4 player.

[DoubleSkulls]

Ah - but Stand Firm means they can't make the 1/2 die block hoping to push you back to open the hole in your line or whatever.

I'd take dodge on a 2nd double.

[Korhil]

Zombie, you seam to be assuming that they wont be able to manage 2 dice on him with there choice.
If they cant get 2 dice on him in the first place, then Dodge is pointless since they will have to roll a 5 & 6 or 6 & 6 combination to get him anyway.
Given that, if they roll a 4 or less on either of the dice then StandFirm will totally negate it (Block negating the 2).

And, if we are saying my tacklers can only deal with ST2 or ST3 players then I'll just ignore your Bull for the game wont I.
If he gets the Ball I can throw either 2 dice against or 1 dice with a StripBaller and get the job done on a 3+ anyway - still assuming I cant get 2 die my choice on him.

Giving him Dodge wont make him invincible at all. Which is almost what your saying.

---Korhil

[Edit] Typos

[Babs]

Korhil Stated:

Giving him Dodge wont make him invincible at all. Which is almost what your saying.

What we are saying is this:

* Dodge makes it harder for your opponent to get the guy down. This means the BullCentaur with dodge will be up on their feet more often than the StandFirmer.
* Stand Firm only helps keep you on your feet when _you_ are dodging. With Dodge, not only do you get the reroll (to help make the dodge) but you can choose whether to dodge or not. You can't choose whether to be blocked or not.

So the Bull Centaur with Dodge will be on their feet more often than the Bull Centaur with Stand Firm.

Do I need to do the number crunching?

And Korhil - do a count in your league - how many players in your league (I'll need to know how many teams too) actually have chosen tackle as a skill - not just come with it?

[DoubleSkulls]

do a count in your league - how many players in your league (I'll need to know how many teams too) actually have chosen tackle as a skill - not just come with it?

Well I made it 16 players in 9 teams have been given tackle. Average TR is ~190.

2 of the teams are CD's (no Dwarves) so have 6 each anyway.

2 of the teams are chaos and not particularly well developed - only a few players with 2 skills and they've all got doubles or stat increases.

The league only has 3 agile teams (DE, Skavs, humans), the rest are power (Chaos, CD and Orc).

Also you are only comparing one aspect of SF against dodge. SF not only means you can't fail a dodge, but also means you hold position. This can be critical for defending the ball carrier, applying TZ's on the ball/ball carrier and holding your line. Also you can never get pushed out of bounds so don't have to worry about frenzy.

[Zombie]

Zombie, you seam to be assuming that they wont be able to manage 2 dice on him with there choice.

No, that's not what i'm saying. They may be able to get a one-die or two-dice block on him, but only if they use a player specifically designed for that (using either ST4, horns or dauntless). Such a player never has tackle (it's bad team development).

Giving the bull centaur dodge leaves the other coach with a choice between a better number of dice for him, or having tackle. He can't have both, so dodge remains effective either way.

And, if we are saying my tacklers can only deal with ST2 or ST3 players then I'll just ignore your Bull for the game wont I.
If he gets the Ball I can throw either 2 dice against or 1 dice with a StripBaller and get the job done on a 3+ anyway - still assuming I cant get 2 die my choice on him.

I would always use my bull centaur with dodge to carry the ball, so you'll have to take notice. I also give such a player block and sure hands, so there's no strip balling him.

[sean newboy]

Such a player never has tackle (it's bad team development).

Wrong Wrong Wrong. Never has no place in my vocabulary (other than to repeat what others say). Lustrian Lizardkings- 4 saurus with tackle. At least 2 bob's on Blackskulls Bashers would have had tackle, the other 2 stripball if i had continued the team. One or more of my st 4+ Demonspawn team will have Tackle. I consider any player that i consider a blitzer (for instance a st 3 block human catcher) a perfect recipient for Tackle and/or Strip Ball.

[Zombie]

Then it's a matter of environment. In my league, tackle is nowhere this popular.