SPP for throwing.

[DoubleSkulls]

The thrower gets rewarded for throwing an accurate pass that doesn't result in a TO. That makes sense to me and isn't illogical.

[GalakStarscraper]

Although JackDragna certainly is in the minority here with his interpretation, I would consider it to be an equally correct interpretation of the rules.

Only if the text read:
"A player catches an accurate pass", Mestari.

JackDragna's interpretation is not correct because it has the wrong order of operations.

Nothing at all anywhere in the 3 pages that deal with passing and catching does it say anything at all about the state of the pass when caught ... only when thrown.

If this was a computer program, the two interprations are completely different.

Galak

[GalakStarscraper]

The thrower gets rewarded for throwing an accurate pass that doesn't result in a TO. That makes sense to me and isn't illogical.

This is another great way of saying it ... and kinda what I was getting at with my longer post to back it up with text quotes.

Another way to say getting a completion:
1) Was the Pass Accurate when thrown?
2) Did it avoid causing a turnover?
3) Did someone other than the Thrower catch it?

These 3 questions are equally true tests for awarding 1 SPP to the Thrower.

Galak

[Casper]

I've always played like Galak states, nut must admit, that I actually became doubtful of it, with the wording "then he is not cathing an accurate paas, but a scattering ball" - thanks for bringing me back on track Galak.
And when talking in programmer language in matters of IF...THEN...ELSE...END IF (at least in VB) I'm in

[Malthor]

I'm afraid I have to disagree with Galak here.

Page 14 of the rulebook has SEPARATE modifiers for catching 'an accurate pass' and catching a 'missed pass, BOUNCING BALL, or throw in'.

The third paragraph on 'CATCHING THE FOOTBALL' on page 14 clearly says that if the player attempting to catch the ball fails to do so, it bounces.

Thus if the accurate pass is not caught by the player, the player in the adjacent squre would be attempting to catch a bouncing ball (at +0), not an accurate pass (+1).

The only intuitive argument for allowing a completion, would be if the ball bounced off the player rather than the astroturf and the player in the adjacent square caught it before it hit the ground. That is how it works in Gridiron... if it hits the ground, it is 'Incomplete'. If the ball is not caught cleanly by the first player, but another player on the same team catches the deflection before it hits the ground then it is still a completion. (Excluding for the sake of the argument the bizarre Gridiron rule where only designated players on the offense are allowed to catch the ball!!!)

From a formal logic viewpoint,

1) A player earns a completion when he 'makes an accurate pass that is caught by another player...'.
2) If an accurate pass is not caught by a player, then it bounces.
3) Catching a bouncing ball is not the same as catching an accurate pass.
4) Catching a bouncing ball does not qualify for the purposes of a completion.

Simple.

(1) is straight from page 39 of the LRB.

(2) is supported by the third paragraph mentioned above which says the ball bounces after a player doesn't catch the ball. It would thus bounce BEFORE a player in an adjacent square tries to catch it.

(3) is supported by the different modifers for catching an accurate pass and catching a bouncing ball on page 14.

(4) If you accept 1 to 3, then 4 has to follow.


As for the long discussion about turnovers, and in particular point 3 of the turnover rules on page 8, it all depends on semantics.

If my player who was under the original pass (accurate or scattered) and he fails to catch the ball, one can argue that the conditions for point 3 have been met. Going through criteria 3:

Was the ball passed? Yes.
Did a player from the moving team not catch the ball? Yes.

Thus a turnover.

You are reading criteria 3 as to mean that any other player on my team could catch the (then bouncing) ball.

Imagine this (ridiculous example coming):

I make an accurate pass to my catcher, who fails to catch the ball (git!!!), it bounces off his head, onto the astroturf beneath the feet of an adjacent opposing player, who also fails to catch the bouncing ball, which he accidently knocks with his hands towards a player on my team who also fails to catch the bouncing ball as he was looking the other way, it then bounces off his back towards another opposing player whose attempt to scoop the ball results in him batting it along the ground to another of my players etc etc, and after bouncing through onto all 11 opposing players and 9 of my players, my last player finally manages to catch the bouncing ball. COMPLETION!!! No turnover either!

Second example:

I pass to my catcher who is on the sidelines. The pass is accurate. He fails his catch attempt (re really is a git LOL) and the ball bounces out of bounds. The crowd throw the ball back inbounds, but because my cather was near the end zone, it sails out of bounds again! The crowd up that end then throw the ball 11 squares back towards the line of scrimmage where it lands in an empty square. It then bounces one square onto my lineman who catches the bouncing ball. COMPLETION!!! No turnover either so my lineman then runs 6 squares diagonally towards my catcher and hands off the ball to him. The catcher runs the final 5-6 squares for a touchdown!

Not meaning to be sarcastic, just using extreme examples to illustrate my point.

I'm very prepared to be wrong, but my reading of the rules (and whilst I am not a programmer, I have a long history in philosophy and formal logic - in fact, I write SQL queries for a living) is different to yours.

At any rate, this is certainly something that should be cleared up in the Rules Review (if it is not too late) as the wording is ambiguous enough for there to be this difference of opinion.

Kind Regards,

Malthor

[Darkson]

Malthor, your 2 examples are correct, they are both completed pass, as they satisfy the critera for a non-turnover pass ie. was the pass caught by a member of te moving team. Yes they are extreme, but correct.

Going back to SPP's, having re-read it again it can be neatly boiled down to 2 parts, which are completely seperate:

1) Did the passer throw ACCURATE (ie pass the pass roll)?

2) Was the ball caught by a member of the passig team (other than the passer)?

If both are yes, then it's 1SPP. Nowhere in the SPP section does it say spp are awarded only if the 1st catch roll is passed, only that the ball is caught by a member of the moving team.

[Oxinotl]

good job Galak

[Darkson]

Who's this Galak fella?

[Vitalis]

I'm afraid I have to disagree with Galak here.

Page 14 of the rulebook has SEPARATE modifiers for catching 'an accurate pass' and catching a 'missed pass, BOUNCING BALL, or throw in'.

The third paragraph on 'CATCHING THE FOOTBALL' on page 14 clearly says that if the player attempting to catch the ball fails to do so, it bounces.

Thus if the accurate pass is not caught by the player, the player in the adjacent squre would be attempting to catch a bouncing ball (at +0), not an accurate pass (+1).

The only intuitive argument for allowing a completion, would be if the ball bounced off the player rather than the astroturf and the player in the adjacent square caught it before it hit the ground. That is how it works in Gridiron... if it hits the ground, it is 'Incomplete'. If the ball is not caught cleanly by the first player, but another player on the same team catches the deflection before it hits the ground then it is still a completion. (Excluding for the sake of the argument the bizarre Gridiron rule where only designated players on the offense are allowed to catch the ball!!!)

Well - I think you've got it wrong Malthor because you subconsciously link the actions 'the ball touching the ground'/'the ball touching the opponents players' with a missed pass.

There's nothing wrong with the ball jumping all over the place as long as it ends up in the hands of a teammate - not the thrower. This does qualify as a completion.

Best regards
Lars.

[Bevan]

Imagine this (ridiculous example coming):

I make an accurate pass to my catcher, who fails to catch the ball (git!!!), it bounces off his head, onto the astroturf beneath the feet of an adjacent opposing player, who also fails to catch the bouncing ball, which he accidently knocks with his hands towards a player on my team who also fails to catch the bouncing ball as he was looking the other way, it then bounces off his back towards another opposing player whose attempt to scoop the ball results in him batting it along the ground to another of my players etc etc, and after bouncing through onto all 11 opposing players and 9 of my players, my last player finally manages to catch the bouncing ball. COMPLETION!!! No turnover either!

Some of the confusion over completions arises if we assume the ball has bounced around on the ground before the completion occurs. In the example given, the ball cannot have touched the ground or play would have stopped. If the ball lands on a player then he catches it or scatters it. If it lands on the ground the ball does not scatter further so it is a turnover and no completion.

In the other example where the ball goes out of bounds it can hit the ground and scatter one more time. I would be quite happy not to allow completions after the ball goes out of bounds but is seems to be allowed in the rules at present.

[Malthor]

Have just found the section on TURNOVERS on the bottom right of page 14. It specifically shows that my second example is indeed not a turnover (though I remain convinced that it should not be called a completion from an deductive logic and semantic viewpoint).

I think it is bizarre and makes no sense if you compare the game to Gridiron (I'm a fan!). But that is the ruling.

Outcome: I agree no turnover for either of my two examples, but will have to agree to disagree about whether or not it is a completion until it is made more clear in the LRB.

Darkson, thanks for your comments, but I don't think you can split the single sentence definition of a completion into the two you have without changing the meaning of that sentence. The key word in the definition is 'THAT'. Once the first player fails to catch the ball, subsequent players are no longer trying to catch THAT accurate pass, they are trying to catch a bouncing ball (hence the different modifiers). At any rate, I think the LRB could do with an expanded explantion (including an example) such as what they have included for turnovers in the bottom right of page 14.

Kind Regards,

Malthor

[Rustycan]

Ok lets toss in Diving catch here. If the thrower passes the pass but it is not accurate, and your catcher uses diving catch to get it. Does your thrower get a completion?? Or do you just avoid the turnover because your catcher made an awesome catch??

[Grumbledook]

You only get a completion if iyour thrower passes an accurate pass and its caught by a player on your team. Thats the only criteria and its fairly simple to understand. If its a fumble or a scattered throw even if its caught no spp for completion because its not accurate. If its accurate yet the intedned catcher doesn't get it, yet it scattters to another team mate they catch it, that is a completed accutate pass so you would get the spp.

Diving catch isn't applicable because you can only use it if you are the intended receipient of the throw (may be wrong. If you were the intended then the padd must be accurate to get the spp, therefore the only case you could have used diving catch was, if the pass was inaccurate, so even if he does catch it, no ssp cause the pass wasn't on target.

[DoubleSkulls]

You can't ever get SPPs for a diving catch since the pass was inaccurate for DC to work.

[Grumbledook]

I just explained that.