Helpâ€¦ my Dark Elves keep losing!

datalorex · Post by **datalorex** » Thu Feb 22, 2007 10:46 pm

PubBowler wrote:
datalorex wrote: It's the only character that cost 100 thou or more that has 7 armor. VERY expensive for 7 armor.
Cough, Wardancer, Cough.

hehe, my oversight. At least the wardancer is a blodger! Comparing it to the Amazon Blitzer, it cost 30 thou more and has 2 movement, leap,and one more agility. THAT is well costed.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:29 pm

Witches are well costed too. EVEN WITH Frenzy being substantially weakened in the last few editions, Witch Elves are REALLY REALLY scary once they get block. I have one in my home league that's gotten 2 doubles rolls, and has Block, Juggernaut, and Mighty Blow. And let me tell ya...

Seriously, though, even without the doubles rolls...a Witch with Block, Dauntless, Tackle is pretty nasty too.

Dark Elves are just a team that take a bit of work to master. It even says so in the roster section.

stormmaster1 · Post by **stormmaster1** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:59 pm

Witch elves can be a weak link untill they get block and are barely worth 110k. But once they get block they are a menace. They tend to get block very quickly due to Ma7 Ag4 dodge. They are a risk before that, but they can be usefull against teams with limited block/tackle.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 4:07 pm

Yes, I never start a dark elf team with a Witch for leagues, because without block they are a liability. With some solid support though, as mentioned, they get block fast and then they rock.

Grogmir · Post by **Grogmir** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 5:18 pm

Hi guys

So youâ€™re all of the opinion that W.Elfs need block. However in my particular case a vast majority of my games will be against my GFâ€™s norse team (or should that be Block team!) So it will get less use. Thatâ€™s why I was thinking about Wrestle. I Know I Know 110+ plus player on the ground but I wanna hit the norse!

Regards
Grogmir

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 6:58 pm

No, against the Norse the witch elf ESPECIALLY needs block. It's more, not less.

Norse will always be willing to take the "both down" option when they hit the witch if she doesn't have block, because they will always have block. With a player that costs what she does, with only AV7, you need to do whatever you can to keep her off the turf, with or without JumpUp.

When hitting the norse, you'll be surprised how often that Both Down/Skull combo shows up. Just ask any rookie Black Orc how often he sees that combo on his 2die blocks.

If you want Wrestle, fine, take it, it does work well with Jump Up. But don't be taking it INSTEAD of Block. Take it AFTER Block. It's about flexibility.

datalorex · Post by **datalorex** » Fri Feb 23, 2007 10:35 pm

wesleytj wrote:Witches are well costed too. EVEN WITH Frenzy being substantially weakened in the last few editions, Witch Elves are REALLY REALLY scary once they get block.

EXACTLY why I like the Norse Beserker. It starts with Block and Frenzy. That's why it can get away with ST3 with Frenzy.

IF the witch survives, she will be frenzing into a lot of 1/2 die blocks without block. Therefore, I think it's better to take your assassins first before taking your witches

TuernRedvenom · Post by **TuernRedvenom** » Sat Feb 24, 2007 8:04 am

If you want Wrestle, fine, take it, it does work well with Jump Up. But don't be taking it INSTEAD of Block. Take it AFTER Block. It's about flexibility.

I don't agree with that statement, you can ever only use one of them so I think there are other skills that are more worth it... (like side step or tackle)

datalorex · Post by **datalorex** » Sun Feb 25, 2007 4:43 pm

TuernRedvenom wrote:
If you want Wrestle, fine, take it, it does work well with Jump Up. But don't be taking it INSTEAD of Block. Take it AFTER Block. It's about flexibility.
I don't agree with that statement, you can ever only use one of them so I think there are other skills that are more worth it... (like side step or tackle)

Yeah, it doesn't make much sense to take Block AND wrestle. It's usually one or the other.

IONDragonX · Post by **IONDragonX** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:15 am

Please consider developing a Blitzer as a Troll Slayer type... This means Dautless first, then Pro. As long as the Ulfwerners and the Snow Troll are on the ground, they do less damage.

If you go the fouling route, take Sneaky Git waaaayy before DP! The teammate assists will make up for it!

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:18 pm

datalorex wrote:IF the witch survives, she will be frenzing into a lot of 1/2 die blocks without block. Therefore, I think it's better to take your assassins first before taking your witches

If that's the case, you didn't plan your witches move properly. You HAVE to look ahead to the 2nd block, and if it's bad odds, either fix it or don't do the block.

That's not a player flaw, that's flawed coaching.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 1:20 pm

datalorex wrote:
TuernRedvenom wrote:
If you want Wrestle, fine, take it, it does work well with Jump Up. But don't be taking it INSTEAD of Block. Take it AFTER Block. It's about flexibility.
I don't agree with that statement, you can ever only use one of them so I think there are other skills that are more worth it... (like side step or tackle)
Yeah, it doesn't make much sense to take Block AND wrestle. It's usually one or the other.

The idea is to have the option of doing whichever you choose, depending on the opponent, and block still helps when someone is hitting you, not just when it's your action.

Like I said, the idea is to have maximum flexibility, and survivability. I still say no matter WHAT your plan is for the witch, she should get block. YMMV.

kano · Post by **kano** » Mon Feb 26, 2007 2:42 pm

I havent been playing DE that long, but in my limited experience with them I would definitely take Block over Wrestle. Frenzy is a lot harder skill to manage without Block. Right now my WE has Block and Side Step, pretty happy with the way she plays right now. Probably take Tackle as the next skill on her. Play her more in the back as a safety on defense, and it is easier to manage Frenzy and to protect her AV7.

Actually have never tried taking Block and Wrestle on the same player before. I would think with all the useful skills the WE has access to already, plus any doubles or stat-ups, I couldnt see actually taking both skills on her......

datalorex · Post by **datalorex** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 5:10 am

wesleytj wrote: The idea is to have the option of doing whichever you choose, depending on the opponent, and block still helps when someone is hitting you, not just when it's your action.

Like I said, the idea is to have maximum flexibility, and survivability. I still say no matter WHAT your plan is for the witch, she should get block. YMMV.

Well, we do agree that the Witch should have block first. I do understand the usefullness of wrestle (opening up holes, stripping the balls from players), but it just seems redundant to have wrestle and block. Why increase the TTV by 20 g's with virtually the same skill? You say it's for flexibilty and survivabilty. Having both won't help with survivability at all, and saying it's for flexibility is like having a player with Pro and Pass "just in case."

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Tue Feb 27, 2007 4:56 pm

OK, let's back up...I'm being taken out of context a little here. If you scroll back to my original message on Block and Wrestle, actually my 3rd one here, I'm saying that Block is the key, and that Wrestle is optional. If the coach felt compelled to take Wrestle, they should still take Block, but I wouldn't take Wrestle on a Witch Elf.

Also, the original poster said he was playing Norse a lot...in which case Block is even more important. So once again, Block is the key, and since they seemed fixated on Wrestle, I said that if they did take it, not to exclude Block anyway.

My Witch Elves don't do Wrestle, and I don't want them to, even with JumpUp. They'd be instant foul bait, I have no interest in placing my most expensive players prone for free. I wouldn't be averse to having a line elf or two with it, but it's not really my style as such either. I'd rather go the traditional Block route...if you really feel like mixing it up with the new stuff, Fend is a good line elf skill, and I put that on a few of them, but AFTER Block.