Block as a reroll

[drathul]

Hi,

just a random thought, but has anyone tried (or looked at the stats) of using block as a reroll as opposed to ignoring both down?


just wondering what the effects on the game might be if block was used this way.

[IONDragonX]

Interesting. Its probably too good, tho.

I nerfed Block a little in my league. If the attacker has block and the victim doesn't, I allow both a push back and a knock down. Roles reversed, it knocks down the attacker. However, if both the players have block, they have to both throw a die and the higher score wins. In case of a tie, nothing happens.

[MadLordAnarchy]

Interesting idea. Block is problematic so I nerfed as well but I'm still not sure what the right solution is.

[Pink Horror]

Life, one continuous interruption to my sleep

You never sleep?

Block as a reroll - bad idea.

[drathul]

You never sleep?

rarely- insomnia

Block as a reroll - bad idea.

Why? I'd appreciate it if you would elaborate?

[Vero]

Extending the idea: Block a reroll and higher strength gives the current effect of block. That would make str4 equal to ag4, ie 2+ for no turnover and a skill (like dodge, pass, catch) providing the reroll. Of the current team balance would be lost.

[mattski]

Best idea that I have ever seen to combat the taking of block is from (I think) Pink Horror who suggested moving Block and some other skills into an elite category. Any player who rolled a double could take one. I use it in a house ruled (to death) league and it works brilliantly. It also means that you can then allow stunties and Big guys to take General skills without them becoming unbalanced. The preponderance of block is a blight on the game which has never really been dealt with imho.

[Snew]

The preponderance of block is a blight on the game which has never really been dealt with imho.

It's not just your opinion.

[madrobot]

Thats an interesting idea mattski, but wouldn't that make teams like Dwarves and Norse even more potent with so many players starting with block, and other teams in the league needing doubles to obtain it?

[mattski]

First up I only wish the idea had been mine! When I played around with it you are spot on, Dwarves and Norse were always going to be the problem. From the word go I decided to change block on Dwarves to Wrestle which I felt suited them and initially I left the Norse as they were. And then watched as they mowed the rest of the league in half! After thinking about it I swapped Block for Frenzy on every player which not only hampered them somewhat but also made them feel more like an out of control Norse team.

You should be aware though that I play using the Simultaneous Turns rules which totally alter many of the dynamics of the game. If you are interested than the skills which were talked about as being elite were:

Block
Guard
Frenzy
Leader
Nerves of Steel
Stand Firm

all of which can be argued to be much more powerful and influential than other skills. But what the elite skills do is embrace this rather than ignore them or try and make them more wishy washy. They should be elite. Blitzers should be better at taking out other players. But why stop stunties/big guys from having access to all those other skills which would make them interesting?

All I can say is that after some trial and error it really works for me and leads to teams that are more diverse and interesting. Now if a lino gets Block but picks up a stat injury you have to actually stop and think about whether to cut him rather than it being a no-brainer decision. And to me that can only be a good thing.

[Grumbledook]

i dont' see an issue with block as it is, no matter how many threads get made on it ;o

[David Bergkvist]

I had thought about the block=reroll idea as well, and made some statistics (all are for two dice blocks):

Code: Select all

SYMBOL     Base Safe Aggr Avg  LRB
Skull      11%  1%   5%   3%   3%
Arrow      33%  37%  15%  26%  22%
Pow        56%  62%  80%  71%  75%

ABBR       MEANING
Base       Base for comparison -- attacker doesn't have block.
Safe       Attacker uses block to reroll skulls.
Aggr       Attacker uses block to reroll arrows and skulls.
Avg        Average of safe and aggr.
LRB        LRB where attacker, but not defender, has block.

(In all instances above, "skull" refers to any situation where the attacker is knocked down, i.e. it includes "both down" as well in the base, safe, aggr and avg columns).

A few notes:

1. If the attacker rerolls push backs half of the time (the avg column), he gets the same 3% risk of turnover as in the LRB, but fewer knockdowns, so this suggestion reduces the power of block, if anyone thought differently.

2. You cannot reroll a rerolled block, so the lowest risk of turnover with the block=reroll rule is 1/81, as opposed to 1/1296 in the LRB.

3. A new tactical dimension is added: "should I reroll push backs (and thereby risk getting a skull), in order to increase the knock down rate?".

4. Another tactical dimension is removed: there is no longer any advantage in positioning your players such that your blockers block opposing non-blockers and your non-blockers block opposing blockers.

5. Since block can no longer be used as defense, the number of knockdowns, and thus casualties, will go up), probably benefitting high AV teams.

[voyagers_uk]

this is verging on the brink of being understood by my tired old brain.... I cannot access the original article from work (the word GAMES in the title seems to get it blocked)

can someone walk me through the concept and basic principles of simultaneous turns

I could then better judge the merits of Block and Elite skills, although mattski's list seems to bugger the Dwarves soundly, Block and Guard eh? not sure I am in favour of guard being in there. too many ST4 and 5 teams out there for that to work for me.

slowly for the elderly and in BIG TYPE for the visually challenged.

feeling very decrepit today (and am only 35)

[mattski]

can someone walk me through the concept and basic principles of simultaneous turns

All you do is take a set of playing cards and have one card for each player on the field. You then shuffle the 'deck', remove one card which is not used (so that not every player will move every turn) and then draw one card from the pile and activate him as usual with the usual provisos of only one player a turn can blitz/pass etc. If a player commits a turnover for any reason then the next time that a player from his side should be activated instead he can do nothing.

So as you can imagine you can have situations where one side can move 3 or 4 players before the other side can do anything. Turnovers become less important because you only lose movement on one player. The game becomes a lot less predictable but teams become more random. I have seen one side not be able to score on the final turn because the player with the ball was the player who was not able to be activated that turn. As a coach you feel like you have less control which is one of the reasons that I like it but I think is probably just as good a reason for many others to dislike it.

Dwarves have done ok in my house league although I have a cap of 150 rating and random player availability and random skills and loads of other tweaks and kinks so any 'data' that I provide for these rules has to be taken with a mountain of salt.

[Snew]

Thats an interesting idea mattski, but wouldn't that make teams like Dwarves and Norse even more potent with so many players starting with block, and other teams in the league needing doubles to obtain it?

NO, NO, NO!

Those f'ing Dwarf Linemen (don't tell me they're Blockers!) loose the skill!