Skaven for the Black Forest Bowl (TR105 w/ inducements)

Mootaz · Post by **Mootaz** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:44 pm

After getting help for my Dungeonbowl appearance, I now need your support for another upcoming tourney

Rules are:
TR105
Inducements as permanent part of your team are allowed (no star players, mercenaries or wizards)
Before the tourney 5 skills or (2skills and 2 doubles)

This offers some very interesting possibilities. Inducements allow me to get Bloodweiser Babes, which are great for squishy teams. With the doubles I can get the rat ogre an interesting skill and/or mutations for my rats.

What would you take?

I am considering the following options:

1)
2 Blitzers
4 Gutters
5 Linerats
1 Thrower
3 RR
1 Bloodweiser Babe
Skills: Kick, Strip Ball, Tackle, 2xSidestep

2)
1 Blitzer
4 Gutters
1 Rat Ogre
5 Linerats
3 RR
0 FF
Skills:
Kick, Strip Ball, Block(Rat Ogre, double), Two Heads (Gutter, double)
or
Kick, Strip Ball, Tackle, 2xSidestep

What are your ideas to take advantage of that environment?

EDIT: Had an error in the second roster (it was TR110). Reduced to one Blitzer.

Kheldar · Post by **Kheldar** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:22 pm

Don't take the Babes. They wont help against the CAS your opponents do

Mootaz · Post by **Mootaz** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:35 pm

Kheldar wrote:Don't take the Babes. They wont help against the CAS your opponents do

Talk about adding insult to injury...

What do you guys think of putting Two Heads on a Gutter? That means he can go almost anywhere.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:00 pm

I do like the idea of a bloodweiser babe. you'll take KO's, not just CAS. Anything you can do to maintain some numbers on the field will help. On the other hand, just having an extra linerat would cost the same.

As for skills, I'd suggest you don't forget to get a Storm Vermin with Guard (that'd be "blitzer" for the newbs). One Guard can make a TON of difference in the right place at the right time. Very annoying player.

The roster I'd go with is somewhere between 1 and 2. I think mine would look something like this:

Rat Ogre 16
4 Gutters 32
2 Storm Vermin 18
4 Line Rats 20
1 Thrower 7
2 RR 12

Only 12 players, but you get all the positionals (only 1 thrower but still pretty close). For skills, I'd say take 5 reg skills, leader for thrower, kick for GR, leap for GR, Guard on both Vermin. That's how I'd do it anyway.

Mootaz · Post by **Mootaz** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:10 pm

I had an error in my second roster, now that I have corrected it, I like your roster better than mine.
I normally love Guard, but it somehow doesn't fit with my way of playing Skaven. I'd rather have Sidestep to make my Gutters ultra-annoying. But leader on the thrower seems to be a must, with only 2 RR.

BTW: The thing about "only CAS" was an "inside joke" from the dungeonbowl where he scored 7:0 CAS against me (with Woodies!!).

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:06 pm

I think Babes are of questionable value in a tournament environment.

Normally 1/2 of players recover - and the babe makes it 2/3. That's 1/6 more players coming back at the end of each roll. So effectively you are paying 50k for 1/6 of a player for each KO - if you say you've got 3 KOd players in an average game - then that's roughly a 50/50 chance of one additional returnee - that you have no choice over.

Over 2 or 3 recovery rolls the value of the babe actually decreases. After two KO rolls 75% of players are back normally - with a babe its 89% - so only about 1/7 better.

Compare the 50k to either an extra lineman (guaranteed) or apoth 50% chance of getting back a SI/Dead and 100% chance of a BH player of your choice (i.e skilled positional) it really just doesn't seem to add up to the percentage play.

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:51 pm

Good post Ian, I hadn't actually bothered to think it through statistically. I stand corrected, don't take Bloodweiser Babes to tourneys. At least not for your team anyway, if you can talk one into coming with you personally, that's something else entirely.

Mootaz · Post by **Mootaz** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 11:36 am

Thanks Ian, didn't think of that.

I'm still unsure of what to take. Does anyone have an opinion on Gutters with "Two Heads" (+1 on all dodges)? He can go ways that noone else can go, without having to resort to leap, and with a dodge-reroll to boot. But it would mean that I could not take as many other interesting skills.

Glorian Underhill · Post by **Glorian Underhill** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:50 pm

Guard on Blitzers is a must. Playing with Dwarfs against Skaven is almost imposible if there is a guard/block player in his line.

Once his guarder was gone to the fans

the rest was just a mop up.

So guard for the blitzers. And as Guard is a square-root-skill two times guard is 4 times better.

Mo · Post by Mo » Fri Mar 23, 2007 2:53 pm

Guard on a Blitzer is the first choice.
Then a Strip Ball Runner and a Block Runner. Blodgy Runners are your real blitzers on the team, they can always get to where you need them.
I never bother with a Thrower, the Runners do all the ball handling.
I like Babes for AV7 in tourneys, especially now that Apo is pretty useless when it used to provide your 5th Runner. You'll take more KOs than Cas. And you can get up to 2 Babes -- all KOs recover on 2+!

Cheers,
Mo

Mootaz · Post by **Mootaz** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 4:13 pm

I'm not a big fan of Block on Gutters. When I'm blitzing with Gutters, it is almost always the ball carrier. That's where the Strip Baller comes into play. Otherwise I'd rather have Sidesteppers, because they are so annyoing.

At the DB I didn't have a Guarder, but I see your point. The Guarder is used to give the crucial assist where you punch the hole on defensive, without the assisting player being in the way of the following Gutters.

So my setup currently is:
1 Blitzer
4 Gutters
1 Rat Ogre
5 Linerats
3 RR
0 FF
Skills:
Kick, Strip Ball, Guard, 2 x Sidestep

or
2 Blitzers
4 Gutters
6 Linerats
1 Thrower
3 RR
Skills: Kick, Strip Ball, Guard, Tackle, Sidestep

copper · Post by **copper** » Fri Mar 23, 2007 6:35 pm

I'm not a big fan of Block on Gutters. When I'm blitzing with Gutters, it is almost always the ball carrier. That's where the Strip Baller comes into play. Otherwise I'd rather have Sidesteppers, because they are so annyoing.

I would think of Block on GRs in a more defensive way. GRs are the biggest thread of a Skaven Team and blitzing one every turn to get rid of them is considered a viable tactic by many coaches. With Block/Dodge they will survive longer and cost the other team a RR or two.

Two Heads:
Back in 3rd Edition I hired Hakflem in a non-resurrection Tournament and he rocked (ST+1 and three Mutations on a GR for 50k extra was a bargain even if he stole some SPP in 4 games). Iâ€™m not sure on the effect of Two Heads on a normal GR. Handled with care he could be nasty â€“ but still needs protection.
For the 2Skills + 2Doubles option I would prefer Big Hand on a GR and Block on the Rat Ogre plus Kick/Strip Ball.

Usually two out of three teams I faced after taking Tackle didnâ€™t have any Dodgers. Thatâ€™s why Iâ€™m no big fan of that skill. But thatâ€™s my personal experience.

TuernRedvenom · Post by **TuernRedvenom** » Sat Mar 24, 2007 11:43 am

Block is still a must have skill. Sure Hands cancels strip ball, but often you need block to bring down a vanilla sure hands guy.
Any team will have 1 block + sure hands player at most, but can have multiple sure hands players (2 dwarf runners, human throwers,..). What you do vs these teams is use kick to get the ball towards the sure hands guy without block. Then, you try to get him down with a half-die block.

And it's a protecting skill.