LRB 5.0 pregame

[Xtreme]

This isn't so much a rule query as it is a complaint. I'm curious to find out if I am alone in this.

I only have one big complaint about 5.0. I have several small ones but recognize that they are personnel preference things that can be easily house ruled.

The Pre-Game and spending cash from your treasury/bank/petty cash on inducements. I think the amount of record keeping post game has gone up pretty substantially in 5.0 and if not it feels that way. But then added to this after the teams have started to progress the pre-game is just a pain in the arse. When one team wants to spend real money on inducements and has to figure out their TV over again and play this strange mathematical guessing game to see what the difference has now become in TV to see if they have any inducement money blah blah blah, borring.......

I understand the rule is there to avoid people hording money and trying to abuse the system, but it really does add a lot of headache. I get to the point where I don't care what the hell my opponent is doing I just want to get my players out on the pitch and play.

Wouldn't it be easier to say, you can't use real money on inducements? I know there are strategies that include saving money for inducements, and I plan to use some. But in the end its more hassle then its worth IMO.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Or is there a simpilier way to do this?

[Old Man Draco]

Count all the money to the TV. Then it won't matter if you use it on inducements or not. So delete the bank.

That would be my option.

[voyagers_uk]

I really have not seen the difficulty, it is not rocket science after all.

however I may be wrong do you have an exact example to run through with us that inspired this rant?

that may help to further discussion

[Xtreme]

Count all the money to the TV. Then it won't matter if you use it on inducements or not. So delete the bank.

I like that option.

As for an example, not one specific one, but every 5.0 email game I have started recently has been a pain. My TT league hasn't gotten to the point where it is an issue as we are all still close in TV. I know it isn't rocket science but it does take awhile to figure it all out, when I sit down to play BB I want to play BB not do math problems for 20 minutes first. I understand this is all exaggerated by my personnel annoance, but IMO it is an issue.

[Digger Goreman]

Ain't that hard... compare TV... the overdog decides if he wants something first and has only 4 mins to decide... then the "underdog" has 4 mins to select his inducements... IF he spends any money then it directly reduces his inducements by the same amount... therefore, unless he has banked a lot of cash and desperately has to have something, then it's insane to use any of his own money....

Example: after the overdog's decision, there is a difference of 90,000.... The underdog has only 50,000 to spend on inducements (no inducement less than 50k).... If he feels he HAS to have a star worth 100,000 then he has to spend the 100,000 out of his own cash and reduces the money you gave him to, effectively, zero....

Max time... 8 mins... and only if the overdog spends on inducements....

[zephard]

In Vomit Lickspittle example, it shows what normally happens when the underdog decides to spend his own cash instead of the inducement cash. He becomes the over dog, but only by amount less than 40K so the new Underdog is actually not able to induce anything anyway.

(There can be extreme cases, but those coaches have more cash than brains.)

[voyagers_uk]

I think the 4 minute time limit in this case is a good idea.

reduce the messing about!

I know exactly the combinations of inducements I want to take and/or prevent my opponent from having before I turn up.

But I am a fanatic!

[copper]

Money in the bank could only be added/removed in the Post-game sequence. So you need to pay money from the treasury (which counts toward TV anyway) for inducements. So no changes to both players TVs whether they buy inducement from their own money or not.

Both players could decide their inducements at the same time without knowing what the other one is selecting.

Did I miss something?

[da_crusher]

I think this cash thing isn't really a problem. Both teams decide if they want to use money from their treasure. They do this independently. Then you work out your new team value (which counts towards spiralling expenses!!). And after this you decide who is the overdog. The science part on this topic is to keep step 2 and 3 separated from each other during the pre-game sequence.
Although I have my doubts if the team with lower TV will ever use treasure for buying inducements as this would decrease the amount of inducement money.
There are some teams Orc, Necro's, most high AV-teams, who don't have any other ways to spend money on later in league. And there might be some occasions, where you want to have that star player in your team.
Think of the tournament's, where no inducements are given to the underdog!

[DesTroy]

This isn't so much a rule query as it is a complaint. I'm curious to find out if I am alone in this.

I only have one big complaint about 5.0. I have several small ones but recognize that they are personnel preference things that can be easily house ruled.

The Pre-Game and spending cash from your treasury/bank/petty cash on inducements. I think the amount of record keeping post game has gone up pretty substantially in 5.0 and if not it feels that way. But then added to this after the teams have started to progress the pre-game is just a pain in the arse. When one team wants to spend real money on inducements and has to figure out their TV over again and play this strange mathematical guessing game to see what the difference has now become in TV to see if they have any inducement money blah blah blah, borring.......

I understand the rule is there to avoid people hording money and trying to abuse the system, but it really does add a lot of headache. I get to the point where I don't care what the hell my opponent is doing I just want to get my players out on the pitch and play.

Wouldn't it be easier to say, you can't use real money on inducements? I know there are strategies that include saving money for inducements, and I plan to use some. But in the end its more hassle then its worth IMO.

Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Or is there a simpilier way to do this?

My thoughts...You are so right! There's more bookkeeping now than ever...players in my league don't even bother with spending "real" Treasury gold for Inducements, and we don't bother recalculating TV after Inducements are chosen, simply to get the game up and running. Pain in the ass IMHO.

[Duke Jan]

That annoyance is why I quit the MBBL, at the time I was alone in my complaint. In table top it's less of a problem than in PBeM because people just want to play. But 8 minutes spent on pre-game? That's ridiculous! You could have played a couple of turns already.

I notice in table top as well, that as soon as more than a budweiser babe is possible things start taking time. Take stars? Freebooters? With or without skills? How much do I have left. It's OK if both players know who they're playing in advance, but when the match up is done just before the game starts (like at a league night) things can become pretty complicated. Even if you're not spending money to complicate matters further.

The point with the bank is that some teams need access to the cash (like halflings with a TV over 100) and some need a possibility to save some, like wood elves. This means there's no easy solution. Other than taking the master chef off the inducement list and putting him on the roster. The financial effects of extra ingredients are calculated quickly enough.

[Snew]

This is one of my biggest gripes with LRB5.

[Grumbledook]

i imagine its cause its newer, once players have used inducements more often they will get quicker at picking what they want

maybe inducements could be restricted to just the TV difference, no money to be spent on them at all? that would speed things up

the old special play cards and handicap table weren't open for more by spending money

[DoubleSkulls]

I think there were a couple of problems with the inducement rules

There was a consensus that cash counting to TV was "unfair" on teams saving up for something expensive (like a death roller). Giving up 100k in inducements when the only differences between the teams was cash in the treasury that wasn't going to be used.

However we also wanted to continue to allow inducements to be bought with cash - mainly for finals games etc where they would normally be banned.

Lots of options were considered and some (like the bank) survived a while. TBH I think the only problem with the current rule is that its counter-intuitive to use (since adding cash as an underdog has no effect until you are the overdog).

As for the time to choose inducements I think that can be a problem for some leagues. Should the rules change or should this be something for individual leagues to work out themselves? I think my preference is the latter. Some leagues have well publicized schedules so you can plan inducements in advance (so this is a non-issue) - and as Grum said people will get quicker as they find their preferences and take them more often than not.

[Snew]

So as the underdog adds cash does his inducement money get reduced? I quit reading and just start rolling dice when it gets to that part. I just trust whatever my opponent says at that point.