Failed Pick-up, but still caught...

[brynolf]

Hi geniuses!

When passing the ball, it doesn't count as a turnover as long as SOMEONE from the moving team ends up with the ball. When Picking up the ball, however, it seems that a failure ALWAYS results in a turnover, even if another player from the moving team manages to catch it while it bounces around.

We will house rule this in our league, so that this scenario does not give a turnover, so the LRB can say whatever it wants. But still, I can't help but wonder, is this really what was intended with the Pick-up rules?

[GalakStarscraper]

We will house rule this in our league, so that this scenario does not give a turnover, so the LRB can say whatever it wants. But still, I can't help but wonder, is this really what was intended with the Pick-up rules?

Yes.

Otherwise defending the ball is pretty worthless in many events.

I position two of my players in key spots and then run up another player to a ball guarded by 3 opponents ... at this point with your rules I might actually HOPE that I DON'T pick up the ball. Because as soon as I fail the pick up roll it will scatter and if I'm lucky it will scatter to one of my players and they'll catch it and I'll move on with my turn. If not ... odds are the opposing player won't catch it because my pick-up player TZ will be on them (and maybe another that I added before the pick-up attempt).

So yeah ... it was on purpose that a failed pick-up roll is always a turnover even if someone from your team catches it before it comes to rest.

[Kyrel]

So what Galak? You still can't choose to convert a successfull roll into a failed roll. I'd agree with you to an extend, if it was possible for the attacking player in your example to choose not to try and catch the ball, if it scattered into his square, and simply roll for scatter again from his square. But as I recall, you have to try and pick up the ball, if you enter a square with it in, or if the ball enters your square.

I must admit to siding with Brynolf on this one. But to each their own.

[brynolf]

Hm, I see your point, Galak. We will discuss this in the league, now when we have some arguments of why the LRB says what it says on this matter. Thanks!

[GalakStarscraper]

So what Galak?

It all depends on how much ability you want a team to be able to guard the ball.

A missed pass not being a turnover until the ball comes to rest is because in order to start the play you had to have the ball.

A failed pick-up roll starts because you didn't have the ball. A good part of good BB play is setup up your players to cover for failure. So since a failed pick-up roll is always a turnover that means that I have to plan out where I want my players and how I might want to defend the ball if I drop it. If there is no turnover for failed pick-ups than it makes it more difficult to defend the ball on the ground and it means that picking up the ball becomes less risky (especially for Elves) because you can set up players near the ball so that if you fail the pick-up ... odds are good you'll get a catch roll afterwards to try again (especially the modification we are working on for Diving Catch) ... and then you have the beauty of your turn not even being over for your trouble.

I never said I though he was suggesting a horrible house rule. I just said "yes the current rules were done for a reason" and "making this change has some definite impact on the game and here is what they are"

Galak

[Kyrel]

Hold on a moment Galak. I can see what you are saying, but we are not talking about a situation where the pick-up is fumbled, and the ball ends up on the ground. That is obviously a turnover. We are talking about the situation where the initial attempt at picking up the ball is fumbled, but the ball then scatters into the square of another friendly player, who manages to pick it up (which I'd argue would count as trying to catch a missed throw, with regards to modifiers, hence +1 for picking up the ball, but -1 for a scattered pass). In general I'd say that I don't see that situation happen all that often. The odds of the ball scattering into the right square with the friendly player just isn't all that high, unless you have a lot of friendlies standing around. And if you've moved a lot of players into positions where they might catch a missed pick-up, you will not be able to use them for any more plays for the remainder of that turn. Also, is this really so different from setting up a defence of a ball, for the "just in case" situation where the pick-up attempt is failed? Arguably I'd say that the defence would often be worse, if you go for putting as many players as possible right next to the ball, where they might catch a scattered pick-up.

Anyway, no real point in arguing about this matter. We agree about what the present rules are. I'll just argue that I personally find it more logical to have the turnover occur because the ball ends up outside your sides control, once it comes to a stop after scattering, rather than have it be because it scattered in the first place. And that the tactical challenge isn't all that different between the two rule variants. You still need to set up a possible defence of the ball, in case it doesn't end up where you planned for it to go. The "house rule" variant is just a tad more forgiving than the official ones are at the moment.

Anyway have a nice weekend

[da_crusher]

I see Galak's point and I think it is right to be turn over.

Think of the following:

Code: Select all

.PO
PB.
.PO

P= Your player
O= Opponent player
B= Ball

A fourth player try's to pick up the ball. Fails his pick up and the ball sactters to the left. Now the player catches the ball. He doesn't have to do dodge roll and still has his full movement. So you would actuall benefit from the failed pick up.
During a throw this is different: Unless you are a little bit stupid, you would try to throw the ball to someone in the optimal position. Most other players will be in a worse position, eg. the players guarding the intendet reciever. This way you would be in worse situation than before.

[Snew]

Well I'll go ahead and call it a duck. That's a bad rule suggestion. A lot of what BB is, is trying to get the ball. When it's loose on the ground you HAVE to be aware that you may fail that pickup and plan for it. Part of that planning is when in your turn to try and pick it up, what you're going to try and do with it when you have it, and how you're going to protect it once you have it or fail the pick-up roll. Making it a non-TO really reduces the planning and strategy of that pickup.

[Darkson]

Snew. Nail. Head.

[Azoth]

the rules are quite clear, aren't they? Whenever a pass is FUMBBLED or a pick up try fails, it causes a turnover!

Only in the case a catch try fails it's not autmoatically a turn over. Rules are quite strict here: Only if a thrown ball ends on the ground, the team suffers a turnover...

Turnovers are:
a) a missed pick up the ball, regardless of if the ball ends in the hands of a player
b) a fummbled pass, regardless of if the ball ends in the hands of a player
c) The ball was thrown and do not end in the hands of an attacking player

[Snew]

You got it perfect Azoth.

[fen]

Yeah, for a "faceless" wizard who spends his time raiding Dragon's castles he knows his Blood Bowl rules.

[bitMonkey]

Azoth, sure the rules are clear. This was an idea for a house rule.

An advantage of such a house rule would be that the list of events that cause a turnover (LRB5, page 7) could be simplified. Item 3 could be merged into item 2 quite easily. Personally, I find that very appealing. Less is more, as they say.

Sure, the cause and effects of picking up the ball would change, but not in a significantly bad way, methinks.

[voyagers_uk]

Snew. Nail. Head.

Well finally someone has made that suggestion! I applaud your innovative solution to the issue of Snew.


really though I agree with his Snewness again, this is starting to get weird....

[fen]

really though I agree with his Snewness again, this is starting to get weird....

You need to get one of these *points downwards*