go for its

[Mestari]

Why on earth have they not changed that "falls prone"-text?!? That one has kept popping up all the time (some 5-6yrs) that I've followed the internet BB discussion.

Intention of the rules, AFAIK, is that the player must roll for armour. And far-fetched interpretation about word meanings etc won't change that. I might be wrong, but I believe this has been addressed in FAQ's somewhere. I'm too lazy to search a reference for you, but I'm under the impression that the intent of the rules is pretty well known to be this.

Now, you can house rule it otherwise if you want, but this, I believe, is the correct ruling.

[Xynok]

After delving deep into the LRB, we once again have a problem with ambiguous technical terms. Four different terms are used that coincide with this issue: Knocked Down, Falls Over, Falls Prone, and Knocked Over. All page #s refer to LRB.

Knocked Down
(p.11): Reference to a Block result. Specifically states chance for Injury.

(p.12): Reference to placing a player face up on the field.

Falls Over
(p.12): Reference to placing a player face up on the field.

(p.12): Reference to dropping the ball.

(p.20): Reference to failed GFI roll. Does not specifically state chance for Injury.

Falls Prone
(p.20): Reference to GFI. Used interchangably with Falls Over in the same paragraphs. It must be considered the same as Falls Over, so I only list it for completeness sake.

Knocked Over
(p.12): Reference to Injuries:

Unless the rules state otherwise, any player that is knocked over may be injured

Examine these closely. Knocked Down is the result of a Block. Period. You place the player face up on the field, barring injury.

Falls Over indicates you place the player face up on the field. It also is used in reference to GFI. However, notice the bit about dropping the ball: it says nothing about being Knocked Down...is anyone playing that a player keeps the ball if he is Knocked Down as opposed to Falls Over?? Here the terms are obviously interchangable, which leads one to think they must be so anywhere else they are used; there is certainly nothing to indicate they can be interchanged one place and not the other.

This brings us to Knocked Over (combination of Knocked Down and Falls Over). Is this an all-inclusive term for anything that causes the player to go prone? It MUST be. This is still further evidence that the two terms are used interchangably, only here they simply merge the two (one can only guess in order to <cough> clarify the intent).

So there you have it. While GFI does indeed NOT specifically indicate chance for Injury, using terminology (verbage) alone does not suffice to rule it out, and in fact, this same verbage works to prove that Injury is indeed possible on a GFI. I have shown the two terms are used interchangably, as well as pointed out the use of the term Knocked Over. While you may not agree this term is a combination of the two (not sure how you could disagree frankly), you must agree it is NOT specific to a Block like Knocked Down is. As I've shown, to say Knocked Over doesn't apply to Falls Over (and therefore GFI), is the SAME as saying Falls Over doesn't apply to Knocked Down (and therefore a player with the ball keeps it unless they were attempting a GFI).

The term Knocked Over is all-inclusive to anything that causes the player to go prone. Likewise, Knocked Down and Falls Over are used interchangably to describe anything that causes the player to go prone; one is more specific to a Block, while the other is more specific to GFI, but both are used synonymously.

Whew.

[Grumbledook]

Didn't the second edition have something about any player falling over whatever rolled for inj because of the astrogranite pitch.

[Piepgrass]

yes. Page 5 of the 2.ed. Rulebook

Poul

[Deathwing]

I've definately seen something somewhere that states an armour roll must be made everytime a player goes prone unless specifically stated otherwise(e.g. Piling On). May have been an Oberwald..I'll keep looking.

[Xynok]

Deathwing,

It is on page 12 of LRB under Injuries. I already indicated this in my exhaustive post.

Knocked Over = Anything causing a Player to be placed prone = failed GFI

Now, one can try to argue what "Knocked Over" indicates, but a thorough reading of the rules makes it pretty damn clear. Adding "(or Falls Over) for any reason" to the present text would be great, but examining the verbage used currently is enough to show Falls Over indicates an Armor Roll is required.

[Xynok]

Yes, there is more:

Fall Over
(p.33): Pogo Stick. Specifically states Armor roll.

(p.35): Leap skill. Specifically states Armor roll.

Knocked Over
(p.27): Wizards. Specifically states Armor roll.

(p.30): Bombs. Specifically states Armor roll.

(p.32): Death Roller. Specifically states everything that includes 'Knocked Over.' Note GFI is one of them.

(p.36): Piling On skill. Specifically states NO Armor roll.

This is every reference to the terms I initially discussed as found in LRB. The main point in this post is to illustrate that 'Knocked Over' is inclusive to anything that causes a player to be placed prone, and NOT only referring to the 'Knocked Down' result of a Block.

Falling over (Falling Prone) = Knocked Over
Knocked Over = Armor Roll (p.12 LRB)

As I've stated previsouly, a rewrite using consistent verbage, or at least the addition of a few lines where ambiguity exists, is really needed. Still, I feel people are grasping at straws by not equating Falls Over with Knocked Over, and are creating the ambiguity by twisting the intent of the verbage. However, using this same verbage clearly shows the terms are interchangable, and like MANY of their rules, they simply fail to define what become technical terms in the context of the RULES.

[Deathwing]

Deathwing,

It is on page 12 of LRB under Injuries. I already indicated this in my exhaustive post.

Not the quote I'm referring to.
..and should 'exhaustive' read 'exhausting'?

[Xynok]

Ahh, sorry. Do you agree this is saying the same thing, and it is all a matter of how you twist what 'Knocked Over' indicates?

Heh, indeed it is probably more exhausting to read than it was to write.

[Deathwing]

Ahh, sorry. Do you agree this is saying the same thing, and it is all a matter of how you twist what 'Knocked Over' indicates?

Heh, indeed it is probably more exhausting to read than it was to write.

Absolutely. Knocked over/fall over/whatever. If you go prone for any reason then it's an AV roll unless the rules state otherwise. There's a quote somewhere that clarifies this, and it's bugging the hell out of me trying to find it!

[Grumbledook]

Yer i thought i saw that somewhere as well and i can't find it now :/

[Asmodan]

Xynok: Yes you have now proved that falls over = knocked over, BUT
that was not my argument at all that these wasn´t the same.

And while you proved this, you also proved my point that this is the only place in the rule where its not specifically stated an armour roll when you are supposed to do one, so its more likely that you are not supposed to do one.

Falls Prone
(p.20): Reference to GFI. Used interchangably with Falls Over in the same paragraphs. It must be considered the same as Falls Over, so I only list it for completeness sake.

You assume that falls prone = falls over but you have not proved it.
Since both of them are mentioned in the same paragraph you can assume that they are the same but then why write falls prone instead of falls over or even falls over prone?
To me it sounds like the player falls and is prone, and since it does not mention any armour roll like it does for everything elseand because of this I have always belived that you don´t make an armour roll.


Asmodan

[Grumbledook]

Like it has been mentioned a player who falls over knocked over whatever, if they end up on the ground you make an armour roll for them uless it says in the rules you don't, like piling on for example.

[Xynok]

Asmodan:

We can get as circular in this argument as you would like. You have not disproven that Falls Prone = Falls Over.

1) They appear in the same paragraph. In a rules book where technical terms are "left to the wind," why would the writers suddenly want to introduce yet another term for 'Knocked Over' with the intention that it should not be considered the SAME? Is it not much more likely, as can be found throughout these rules, that they simply used another term assuming people would know it was the same as 'Knocked Over'?

2) The rules for GFI do not "indicate otherwise." While it is true they do not specifically state an Armor roll is required, they cetainly do not state one is NOT required.

Your logic that they made up another term (Falls Prone) to mean something other than 'Knocked Over' in order to indicate an Armor Roll is not required is not convincing. It is MUCH more likely they assumed people would know it was the same thing. If they expected people to understand an Armor roll is not required simply because they use the term 'Falls Prone' instead of 'Falls Over,' without any kind of explanation or clarification of the difference, it is certainly not obvious.

Going by the technical letter of the rules, because it does NOT indicate otherwise, an Armor roll is required. Use of the term 'Falls Prone' does not indicate an Armor roll isn't required, it is simply confusing...and nothing more. IF there was anything in the rules that stated 'Falls Prone' means a player who falls over and doesn't make an Armor roll, then you would have a case. As it stands, as per the rules, all one can assume is 'Falls Prone' is the same as 'Falls Over' is the same as 'Knocked Over.' The fact that the term 'Falls Over' is mentioned in the same paragraph for clarification sake lends credence to this.

[neoliminal]

Let me lay this to rest RIGHT NOW:

YOU ROLL AN ARMOUR CHECK AFTER A FAILED GFI.

That is the official rule and if you are somehow reading it differently in the LRB, then the rules need to be clarified. The intention of the rules is that anytime you place a player prone, you roll armour for him unless specifially noted otherwise in special cases.