Apo for a (110) tourney

Meradanis · Post by **Meradanis** » Fri May 04, 2007 12:34 pm

It seems to be mutual consensus that the LRB5 apo sucks on a tourney. The LRB4 suceeded with 2+, the new one seems to suceed with 4+.

Well, I started to think about this and came some suprising conclusions.
First the obvious one: It's 4+ on two rolls, so actually a chance of 75%. Still worse compared to the old 83,34%.
Now the suprising one: Since you declare the useage of the apo after the roll on the injury table, your healing rate is actually 100% or 50%. If one of your key players (like a wardancer) is only badly hurt, you'll get him back guaranteed.

My conclusion: On a mainly AV7 team (Skaven, Pro Elves, Wood Elves) the apo is still a vital option, instead of a 12 players. Of course you could have bad luck (only injuries worse than badly hurt), but that's hardly probable.

Aliboon · Post by **Aliboon** » Fri May 04, 2007 12:50 pm

Mmm, the new one lets you roll again on the CAS table and choose the better result, if it's BH, then the player gets back to the reserves.

So if your player is only BH to begin with, you'd automatically get them back. But if it were more serious, you'd only have a 50% chance of them being able to play later in the game.

Seeing as most of the time you'd only use it on stat decreases or worse, a 1-4 result on the d6 would be better than before (although just the 1-3 would get your player back for the game).

So in a tourney, where you're relying on a good player being on all the time (say a wardancer or grunner) then they'd be a reasonable choice.

hoomin_erra · Post by **hoomin_erra** » Fri May 04, 2007 12:55 pm

Honestly> Apo's are a waste in tourneys under lrb 5

Meradanis · Post by **Meradanis** » Fri May 04, 2007 1:02 pm

hoomin_erra wrote:Honestly> Apo's are a waste in tourneys under lrb 5

Some arguments to substantiate your allegation ?

Aliboon · Post by **Aliboon** » Fri May 04, 2007 1:05 pm

So basically i'm agreeing with you, but I don't think you can average out the chances at 75%, it is either 100%, or 50% to get the player back. The APO is seen as worse because on the more serious injuries, where you'd normally use the APO (deaths and stat decreases), you only have a ~66% (depending on what you actually rolled) chance to make them better.

If the tourney resets all injuries after each match, then it is a fair option.

hoomin_erra · Post by **hoomin_erra** » Fri May 04, 2007 1:07 pm

Do i have to?

Ok, old style, you need a 2+ to succeed. So anything BUT a 1. 1 in 6 chance of failure

New rules, roll twice and pick. 50% chance in failure.

Aliboon · Post by **Aliboon** » Fri May 04, 2007 1:11 pm

Ok, old style, you need a 2+ to succeed. So anything BUT a 1. 1 in 6 chance of failure

New rules, roll twice and pick. 50% chance in failure.

Depends on the original CAS result-if it were just a BH then it is 100%. If (say) my wardancer were to get BH and injuries reset after each game, then i would want him back in the action as a Death is no worse than BH as far as the game is concerned.

All depends on the tourny rules.

Richy · Post by **Richy** » Fri May 04, 2007 2:19 pm

One of the big differences with the LRB.4 apoth rules was that if successful the player stayed on the pitch. The apoth could also be used tactically on KO's and stuns - potentially very useful (e.g. only player in scoring range).

Under LRB.5 they're in the reserve box even if you're successful. This seriously reduces the benefit of the apoth in tournament play.

Cramy · Post by **Cramy** » Sat May 05, 2007 3:56 am

Richy wrote:One of the big differences with the LRB.4 apoth rules was that if successful the player stayed on the pitch. The apoth could also be used tactically on KO's and stuns - potentially very useful (e.g. only player in scoring range).

Under LRB.5 they're in the reserve box even if you're successful. This seriously reduces the benefit of the apoth in tournament play.

I think that this is the biggest negative of the apo for tournaments. Healed player goes in the reserves.

Digger Goreman · Post by **Digger Goreman** » Sat May 05, 2007 3:29 pm

Agreed with Aliboon... the original roll sets the success prob of the reroll.... It's also situational on how badly you need a player in the next drive (or game if cas does not reset)....

What are the values of your most needed pieces? In league play I lost my Orc's Troll to a series of freakish rolls and he was DEAD.... glad I had an Apothecary... now he'll just MNG (regen was a failure).... That's a 180,000 piece I'll get back.... In a reset tourney I guess it doesn't matter.... Still, 50% chance to get the piece back for the next drive is better than no chance... and it's only 50k for the Apoth....

Maybe it doesn't matter, but I think it's dippy that the player would stay on the field while the apoth attends them.... Time for the stretcher bearers!

kithor2002 · Post by **kithor2002** » Sun May 06, 2007 9:01 am

hoomin_erra wrote:Honestly> Apo's are a waste in tourneys under lrb 5

dito.
Even if the player suffers "only" a BH he is placed in the reserve box and won't help you until a td is scored....

And under lrb 4 you even considered to heal a stunned or KO player if he was in a significant position....
Nowadays the LRB 5 apo would only be part of league teams....

So instead of the apo I'd take another lineman for the tournament.

PubBowler · Post by **PubBowler** » Tue May 08, 2007 12:51 pm

I agree for Skaven (not that I've ever played them) but I think some teams should consider a apoth for TV 110.

Teams such as Dwarfs have high cost players across the board and are unlikely to get knocked out (due to Thick Skull). Having an apoth is cheaper than having a reserve and has two other advantages:

1. You can use it on a player with a skill. A lot of tournies give you skills to boost your team and they're very important to your game plan. Having an apoth gives you that second chance to keep that vital member of your team on the pitch is useful.

2. Becuase your opponent has to roll the casualty result before you declare that your using your apoth it will be a risk free action 50% of the time. To explain: if he rolls a BH, by using your apoth your automatically moving your guy to the reserve box. Doesn't come in league matches that often (a lot of people will accept a badly hurt) but in a tournie it can be important.

I take an apoth in my TV110 Dwarf sides every time. I haven't yet felt I missed out on a chance to get an extra Blocker. And this is a team that doesn't have many kick offs to get that reserved player back on the pitch. A wardancer with Strip Ball (or in extreme cases AG5) will have lots more oppurtunities to get back into the action and how much is that worth to you?

datalorex · Post by **datalorex** » Thu May 10, 2007 3:51 am

PubBowler wrote:I agree for Skaven (not that I've ever played them) but I think some teams should consider a apoth for TV 110.

Teams such as Dwarfs have high cost players across the board and are unlikely to get knocked out (due to Thick Skull). Having an apoth is cheaper than having a reserve and has two other advantages:

1. You can use it on a player with a skill. A lot of tournies give you skills to boost your team and they're very important to your game plan. Having an apoth gives you that second chance to keep that vital member of your team on the pitch is useful.

2. Becuase your opponent has to roll the casualty result before you declare that your using your apoth it will be a risk free action 50% of the time. To explain: if he rolls a BH, by using your apoth your automatically moving your guy to the reserve box. Doesn't come in league matches that often (a lot of people will accept a badly hurt) but in a tournie it can be important.

I take an apoth in my TV110 Dwarf sides every time. I haven't yet felt I missed out on a chance to get an extra Blocker. And this is a team that doesn't have many kick offs to get that reserved player back on the pitch. A wardancer with Strip Ball (or in extreme cases AG5) will have lots more oppurtunities to get back into the action and how much is that worth to you?

While your argument makes a lot of sense, the advantage of having a reserve is that you WILL have a player available on the next drive. The apoth might not come through for you. It's not guarenteed. Then you'll be down a player.

It comes down to weather you want to risk getting a better player back or taking the sure thing. If the linemen are 50 thou or less, I'd take a lineman over an apoth everytime. I might take an apoth on an elf team though.

PubBowler · Post by **PubBowler** » Fri May 11, 2007 10:53 am

datalorex wrote:
If the linemen are 50 thou or less, I'd take a lineman over an apoth everytime.

I think that's over-simplistic. Take a look at the Amazon side in a TV110. tournie.

They're cheap.
Their Blitzers are so important, especially with Surehands or Guard.
AV7 throughout the team and 50k lineman.

You're are going to end up with 12 Amazon players however you plan your roster (Throwers & Catchers, 12 & Chainsaw or Blitzers only).
I'd rather have an apoth than a 13th player. Skilled positionals are game winners in tournies.

datalorex · Post by **datalorex** » Sat May 12, 2007 3:42 am

PubBowler wrote:
datalorex wrote:
If the linemen are 50 thou or less, I'd take a lineman over an apoth everytime.
I think that's over-simplistic. Take a look at the Amazon side in a TV110. tournie.

They're cheap.
Their Blitzers are so important, especially with Surehands or Guard.
AV7 throughout the team and 50k lineman.

You're are going to end up with 12 Amazon players however you plan your roster (Throwers & Catchers, 12 & Chainsaw or Blitzers only).
I'd rather have an apoth than a 13th player. Skilled positionals are game winners in tournies.

Like I said, it comes down to whether you want to take a chance or go for the sure thing. But I was really talking about a 12th player vs. an apoth (which I stand by my original statement), but you could make an argument for an apoth instead of a a 13th player. I'd still probably go with the player though.