Pass action

Holy G · Post by **Holy G** » Fri Nov 22, 2002 1:18 pm

Dacagan...Exactly the way we see it....nit picking only....to stop gameplay is not sportsmanlikee...so we voted that you can decide to pass at the end of the move, hence no bad feelings and no unsportmanlike behaviour nice clean game.

But I know now where everything stands, we just have to play the other for the tourny's, so the nit pickers cant capitalize.

Suppose I just got sick of being "dicked" by the unsportmanlike behaviour of nit pickers...

so Ill close my comments now..

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Fri Nov 22, 2002 1:45 pm

What on earth has nit-picking got to do with anything?
I'll always ask my opponent if it looks obvious: Is this a Pass Action? To which I'll usually get a reply..'Yes, sorry' or 'not yet'.
There are good reasons why actions have to be declared in advance, and that's why the rule exists. It's very deliberate. It's there to prevent situations like "Hey wait, I passed my dodges without using my TRR, if I make 2 gfis then I can hand it off, and use the recieving player to pass, that way I can score this turn....oh no! I've failed my first gfi and had to use my TRR, better not go for the second extra square, I'll take the safe option, revert to plan A and throw it from here!"
If your league prefers to play it that way then fine, house rule it. But don't qualify it by saying you do so to prevent cheesiness and nit-picking. If it looks obvious and your opponent forgets, just ask "Is this a Hand-off or a Pass?" It's really not that difficult to apply a bit of common sense and sportsmanship is it?

Holy G · Post by **Holy G** » Fri Nov 22, 2002 1:59 pm

Deathwing I totally agree with your comment, I don't have a problem with applying common sense and sportsmanship, it was our another player 'nameless' who mid season decided to change the way we were playing and it cost another player two games !! Due to the formers lack of sportsmanship.

Sorry if my point got lost anywhere but we other league members felt that it was unnecesary nit picking, in order to just win at all cost.

I haven't been victim of this by the guy!! So I am not arguing with you, we just house ruled it, problem solved.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Fri Nov 22, 2002 2:09 pm

Thats different to saying thats how the rules are, i agree totally about sportsmanship. ive played against ppl who forgot to say they were blitzing before making a bonehead roll with an ogre, if i was nitpicking i wouldn't allow it, but i could see that they were going to do that anyway, so i reminded him about the rules and let him blitz anyway. If however i got to the situation deathwing described I would think twice, especially if it meant he could score because of it. The rules are there to stop players doing such things, its not nit picking, its them abusing the rules. Though there is no problem with you house ruling it. Just remember that these are the rules in tournaments ;] I do hate players who nit pick stuff but if they aren't sticking to their rules and it really hinders me because of it, i will make a point.

Xynok · Post by **Xynok** » Fri Nov 22, 2002 2:47 pm

This "nitpicking" being described also makes you a better player. The best players I know are masters of what I call "disaster management." Blood Bowl is all about disaster management. Allowing coaches to first see what positioning they can get into, THEN declare their actions, is not only against the rules, but it teaches bad habits and causes them to miss out on the most important mechanic in the game.

I have no problem admitting I'm a rules lawyer. While many here perhaps find me disagreeable because of this, it is this mindset that ensures rules are clear, logical, and consistent. Also, a good rules lawyer tries to see all sides of any issue, and has but one objective in mind: make the rule clear for everyone. While this mindset is NOT very welcome DURING a game, it is because of this same mindset that rules and rulings can be noted prior to any game. Nitpicking is simply a part of the process, and forums like this are for this very purpose; after all, I'm not actually playing anyone here, I'm simply putting issues/debates on the table for discussion.

While it is true some people insist on whining, nitpicking, and acting cheesy (et al), learn to differentiate between this behavior, and behavior that ultimately makes the game better for all involved...it isn't always easy to tell. Communication is important, and listening is key.

Ultimately, as long as the rules are clear and consistent for everyone, the specific rule/ruling isn't necessarily important...consistency is ALWAYS. The process of getting to that point unfortunately involves nitpicking, and some rules aren't always logical at first...try to see the big picture.

Holy G · Post by **Holy G** » Fri Nov 22, 2002 2:54 pm

Ok so it was the inconsistancy of the matter and the circumstances which annoyed players on our league, We still have the question after declaring the pass action must we pass or may we choose not to ?

Thanks

Xynok · Post by **Xynok** » Fri Nov 22, 2002 3:32 pm

The "must" on p.8 of LRB I feel is referring to the fact that only this player may make the pass action once he has declared he will do so; if he ultimately decides NOT to (via p.13 LRB), nobody else can make a pass action...it is used up even if the ball is never actually thrown.

This is just like declaring a Big Guy is going to Blitz! but he goes Bone Head...the Blitz! is simply used up. Likewise, you could call Blitz!, move the player, and NOT throw a Block...but the Blitz! is used up.

However, it could be ruled that if an action is declared AND the player is ABLE to perform said action, they MUST do it.

All I know for sure is that the rules behind declaring actions first is there so you can't see what positioning the player can get into first THEN decide to declare it...disaster management. As to if you MUST perform the action if you declare it and are also ABLE to do it, I'd say it is a judgement call. The LRB is ambiguous concerning the Pass action, and doesn't say anything about it concerning the Blitz! action.

We play that you must declare first, but the decision to actually DO it is the coaches choice...but another player cannot declare the action once it has been declared by a player, so the action is lost if you ultimately decide not to actually do it.

Holy G · Post by **Holy G** » Fri Nov 22, 2002 3:35 pm

Ok I can see that thinking..

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Fri Nov 22, 2002 3:37 pm

Yes you don't have to pass even if you make a pass action, just means no one else can either that turn.

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Fri Nov 22, 2002 3:48 pm

I guess this is a judgement call but here's a scenario:
You declare a Pass action and move. My Shadowing/Foul Appearance guy makes the roll and stays with you. You continue to dodge, I continue to shadow until you run out of movement, or I fail to shadow and end within 3 squares of your passing player. You then decide you don't like the odds and hold on to the ball. Doesn't 'feel' right to me.
I'd like an official call on this one.

Holy G · Post by **Holy G** » Fri Nov 22, 2002 3:55 pm

Ok...so makes the official call then ?

Post by **DoubleSkulls** » Fri Nov 22, 2002 3:59 pm

I'd like the an offical answer too.

I was thinking of the more probable case where I declare a pass action and burn the TRR on something else during the action so don't have it available for the pass or catch, therefore I want to chicken out.

To be honest I don't think it will make a lot of difference, although if I have to pass, then I may declare marginally fewer pass actions.

Grumbledook · Post by **Grumbledook** » Fri Nov 22, 2002 4:10 pm

Same goes for blitzing as well, you don't have to make a block do you? Just no one else on the team can make a blitz if you don't.

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Fri Nov 22, 2002 4:15 pm

I'm on it. I'll post when I get a reply.

Deathwing · Post by **Deathwing** » Fri Nov 22, 2002 4:23 pm

How quick was this?

"If you declare a Pass then it must be used by the activated players. If he
does not then the Pass Action is lost.

Andy Hall
Fanatic Editor"

So entirely at the players discretion then. Everybody happy?