Wood Elf tactics, specifically DEFENCE!!

DamianTheLost · Post by **DamianTheLost** » Tue Mar 20, 2007 11:43 pm

Wesley what would be ur lineup in LRB 5.0 now that FF isn't that important for starters? I'm thinking both TV 100 and 110 wise...?

Mad Jackal · Post by **Mad Jackal** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:10 am

I'm no Wes, and he and I dis-agree on a few points, but my 2 pence anyhow.

League: TV 100

Tree
WarDancer
WarDancer
Line Elf x 8
Re-rolls x 1
FF x 3*

TV 110
Tree
WarDancer
WarDancer
Line Elf x 8
Re-rolls x 3^
FF x 3*

Would be my 1st recomendations.

* The 30k could also be spent on upgrading a line elf to a thrower or catcher, though I don't reccomend either. or it could be spread to cheerleader and asst to try and gain re-rolls from the kick off chart. Or even saved for the apoth.

^ (you could swap a re-roll for the apoth if your were nervous.)

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:19 am

DamianTheLost wrote:Wesley what would be ur lineup in LRB 5.0 now that FF isn't that important for starters? I'm thinking both TV 100 and 110 wise...?

Are we talking league or tourney?

Here's how I think I'd break it down:

TR100 League:
1 WD 12
1 Tree 12
9 Line 63
2 RR
3 FF

TR 100 Tourney: - still not real sure about this one. It's TOUGH to make a good WE roster for TR100 tourneys. I'll juggle this around some more.
2 WD 24
1 Tree 12
1 Catcher 9
7 Line 49
1 RR
1 CL

TR110 League:
2 WD 24
1 Tree 12
8 Line 56
3 RR 15
3 FF

TR 110 Tourney - This roster is awesome!!
2 WD 24
1 Tree 12
1 Catcher 9
7 Line 49
3 RR 15
1 CL

Xtreme · Post by **Xtreme** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:58 am

wesleytj wrote: TR 100 Tourney: - still not real sure about this one. It's TOUGH to make a good WE roster for TR100 tourneys. I'll juggle this around some more.
2 WD 24
1 Tree 12
1 Catcher 9
7 Line 49
1 RR
1 CL

Replace the catcher with a thrower, and if tourney rules allow give the thrower leader.

JumpingElf · Post by **JumpingElf** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:05 am

Xtreme wrote:
wesleytj wrote: TR 100 Tourney: - still not real sure about this one. It's TOUGH to make a good WE roster for TR100 tourneys. I'll juggle this around some more.
2 WD 24
1 Tree 12
1 Catcher 9
7 Line 49
1 RR
1 CL
Replace the catcher with a thrower, and if tourney rules allow give the thrower leader.

Very good idea!

Another point ... if you play in a league I forgot to mention: Hire a wizard against bashy teams. Could be more effectiv than a star to break a cage.A good placed fireball and a good dice can make big holes!

wesleytj · Post by **wesleytj** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:15 pm

Xtreme wrote:
wesleytj wrote: TR 100 Tourney: - still not real sure about this one. It's TOUGH to make a good WE roster for TR100 tourneys. I'll juggle this around some more.
2 WD 24
1 Tree 12
1 Catcher 9
7 Line 49
1 RR
1 CL
Replace the catcher with a thrower, and if tourney rules allow give the thrower leader.

See, I'd prefer the catcher, and give her leap. Never underestimate wood elf catchers, especially ones with leap.

But a thrower with leader is good too.

Al the Trowel · Post by **Al the Trowel** » Wed Mar 21, 2007 1:56 pm

As people have said earlier Woodies thrive on opposition mistakes. When receiving the ball they can score quite happily in two or three turns. Either punching a hole and running the ball through in a pocket. Or punching a hole sending through lots of receivers and passing the following turn. Therefore the team should be built to force the opponent to make mistakes when you are kicking.

First Lino skill should be kick
Against slow teams kick deep. They will either drop back to protect the ball whilst running to the LOS or they will try to pass it forwards into their cage. If they fall back and cage then defend as others have already suggested - stall the cage. The opponent will get very nervous if the cage is stuck deep in their half - this leads to mistakes that you can exploit.
If they just leave one or two players to recover the ball, swamp the backfield with WDs and catchers. Use these guys to set up a screen between the ball and the LOS. They will either have to pass over you, and risk interception, or blitz a hole to run through. This means the blitz doesn't get used on pushing players forward into scoring position. Obviously if you can reach the ball carrier mark him (or even better blitz) - this forces more dice rolls. And if any fail you have a couple of WDs and catchers to recover the loose ball and score.

Against fast teams you will have to decide based on their setup - are the main ball handlers sitting deep or near the line. Ideally you want to drop the ball out of reach of key ball handlers. This will force them to play the ball with non-ball handlers (eg linemen, blitzers etc) rather than Ag4 or Sure Hands players. This puts pressure on their team re-rolls - once they burn through them they are more likely to turn themselves over putting your Wood Elves are at an advantage. A short kick means you can pressure the ball immediately - a failed pickup on a short kick is a gift to wood elves. A deep kick gives you the same options as I described for slow teams - but you need to be careful not to over commit as quick teams could out maneuver you.

First Skill War Dancer - Strip Ball
A leaping strip baller will often force your opponent to hold onto the ball with a sure hands player. Just having strip ball therefore limits your opponents options - this can slow down their plays and may make them likely to panic sooner if their cage stalls. This also has synergy with your kick lino - placing the ball out of reach of their sure hands players makes your WD very threatening.

bouncergriim · Post by **bouncergriim** » Sat May 26, 2007 4:08 pm

Just started a new Welf team "Rainbow Warriors" and looking for some strategy on choosing skills as rolls come.

Okay here is my line up, short league only 12 games this season:
(Opponents: 2 khemri, 1 Helf, 1 Cdwarf, 1 dwarf, 2 skaven, 1 norse, 2 orc, 1 chaos, 1 necro, 1 gobbo)

2 WDers
2 Catchers
1 Thrower
7 Linelves
1 rr
banked 20 for apoth

First game 4-2 against the gobbos (need to work on defense a little more).

1 Wardancers skilled up (rolled 7) took strip ball
No other skills yet, did buy an apoth and now have 40k banked towards 2nd RR

Okay The only skill I know I want for sure on any linelf with doubles is guard.

My style is more about dodging than blocking, any progression advice/ or strategy would be great.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Mon May 28, 2007 2:48 am

When you get a normal roll on a lineman, give him Kick. Usually, you'll be putting the ball shallow in the weakside, so they have to either switch sides or take a guy's action and make some early die rolls in order to get the ball to the cage, and if they don't (or if they end their turn trying), it's like rolling a Blitz. Sometimes if the opponent doesn't have a fast player or a Sure Hands guy, you can go deep with it instead, under the theory that you might be able to get to the ball as fast as they can.

Always take stat increases. Always take MA on a 10 (I know, I know, it's tempting, but the AV bump doesn't help much on a single guy, and +MA on anybody really accents your inherent advantages).

You'll do yourself a favor by getting Tackle on the other WD (or at least on a lino who already has Block). That way, you can use him to pop Dodge players. Doubles on a WD for an early skill can be Stand Firm or Guard, both of which are good, but it could also go for Nerves of Steel (not on Strip Ball guy) or Mighty Blow. For your Strip Ball guy, Grab is all kinds of fun. If he rolls doubles, go for Stand Firm, as it can keep him on the ball.

Against teams with limited scoring mechanisms, like Khemri, Undead, Chaos Dwarfs or Dwarfs, Wood Elves do well by trying to assassinate the ball-getters early in the match. Tackle/Block players are useful for this; in 5th ed. Dirty Player has been made a lot less useful, but in any other edition a Dirty Player lineman is a good deal. Anything that can force your opponent to score or give up the ball will pay dividends: it will give you defensive scores and save precious elves. I have a friend who plays WE teams very effectively, and he has a saying: "Scoring saves lives. Getting scored on saves lives too."

A Thrower is a good early buy; surprisingly, he's more valuable on defense than on offense. Start by getting him as many SPP as possible, then Sure Hands. He'll progress fast; give him Nerves of Steel, then Dump Off or Block (doubles schmoubles, but take all stat increases), and have him follow the Strip Ball guy. After 5 or 6 games (by the time he gets NoS), he will give you all kinds of power over the ball. All you have to do is knock the ball free, and you can reliably put it anywhere. Send a catcher (anybody, really. A Catcher is great, but a lino or WD works just as well; go to guys with 3-5 SPP first to get as many skills as possible as early as possible) out deep to receive if you win the fight for possession. A second Thrower is good too, once the money isn't an object; get him SH as well, then Accurate (Strong Arm on doubles), and only field him on offense. The earlier you get these guys, the sooner they get Sure Hands, which if you're playing well is worth a TRR and then some.

In a league, save Leader for a lino with doubles (as an alternative to Guard).

PubBowler · Post by **PubBowler** » Mon May 28, 2007 3:19 pm

[quote="wesleytj

TR 100 Tourney:
2 WD 24
1 Tree 12
1 Catcher 9
7 Line 49
1 RR
1 CL

TR 110 Tourney -
2 WD 24
1 Tree 12
1 Catcher 9
7 Line 49
3 RR 15
1 CL

[/quote]

I agree with your league rosters but from the other side of the table in tournies treemen don't seem worth the reroll it costs you.
There are better players to put the skill on, yet he is unreliable without them, and he is avoided by most coaches.
More like dead wood tha Deeproot I reckon.

datalorex · Post by **datalorex** » Mon May 28, 2007 4:09 pm

mattgslater wrote: A Thrower is a good early buy; surprisingly, he's more valuable on defense than on offense. Start by getting him as many SPP as possible, then Sure Hands. He'll progress fast; give him Nerves of Steel, then Dump Off or Block (doubles schmoubles, but take all stat increases), and have him follow the Strip Ball guy. After 5 or 6 games (by the time he gets NoS), he will give you all kinds of power over the ball. All you have to do is knock the ball free, and you can reliably put it anywhere. Send a catcher (anybody, really. A Catcher is great, but a lino or WD works just as well; go to guys with 3-5 SPP first to get as many skills as possible as early as possible) out deep to receive if you win the fight for possession. A second Thrower is good too, once the money isn't an object; get him SH as well, then Accurate (Strong Arm on doubles), and only field him on offense. The earlier you get these guys, the sooner they get Sure Hands, which if you're playing well is worth a TRR and then some.

In a league, save Leader for a lino with doubles (as an alternative to Guard).

You have great strategies, but I don't agree on giving Leader to a lineman. Give it to your second thrower after you already have surehands and accurate (assuming no doubles). Guard should always be given to Elf linemen.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Mon May 28, 2007 4:39 pm

Whatever roster you end up with will work. Wood Elves are funny that way: what they call a lino everyone else would think of as a positional, and their positionals are also good buys. Every player on the Wood Elf roster is worth taking, it really sucks not to have any re-rolls, and with the lowest armor (among roughly-man-sized teams) in the league an Apothecary is a worthwhile buy too (though in 5th, you should maybe consider buying the APO later). You also get more out of FF than other teams, so it leads to all sorts of weird dilemmas about how to spend your money. Anyone who tells you they have the right way to start a Wood Elf team is really telling you that they have a way that works for them.

The math on a starting WE team is simple. 11 linos cost 77. That leaves you with 23. Upgrading a lino to a Thrower or Catcher costs 2. Upgrading to a Dancer or Tree costs 5, which is the same thing as an Apoth or RR. So, you can upgrade a Lino to a Thrower or Catcher without impacting the number of options you have (or not, if you want the FF). Then you can do four of the following:
*Upgrade to Wardancer
*Upgrade to Wardancer
*Upgrade to 3 Catchers/Throwers (at the expense of that last FF)
*Upgrade to Treeman
*Buy RR
*Buy 2nd RR
*Pick up 5FF (worth it in 3rd/4th; don't do this in 5th)
*Buy an Apothecary (necessary in 3rd, worthwhile in 4th, not in 5th)

In 5th edition, that gives you six worthwhile options. In a 110 league, it's simple: you take them all. In a 100 league, I'd probably go for the 2 WDs, the Tree and one RR, plus a Thrower. In an earlier edition, I'd be tempted to start with an Apothecary or FF, but that forces all kinds of hard questions (and you also have to ask: "what does Take Root do again?" Some old versions are crippling). I think Throwers are better to start with in a long season than are Catchers, even though Catchers are more useful. Throwers develop well, and they take a few games (read: one roll) to get on their feet, while Catchers can make an impact right away, and will get their first roll very quickly. A well-developed team that has invested a couple of early games (where skill teams excel anyway) into building a Thrower will get good use out of him, and a second Thrower bought midseason can give you all kinds of versatility (though you should maybe get a couple of Catchers first).

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Mon May 28, 2007 4:54 pm

datalorex wrote: You have great strategies, but I don't agree on giving Leader to a lineman. Give it to your second thrower after you already have surehands and accurate (assuming no doubles). Guard should always be given to Elf linemen.

I see your point. Maybe Leader is best on the D-Thrower? I don't know. On the one hand, the defensive Thrower plays both sides, while the Thrower who gets Accurate just plays offense (until things get bad; then everybody's on). On the other hand, he's more injury-prone as he's going to spend a lot of time in enemy TZs. I guess the O-Thrower would be more useful: you can only use the RR when he's on the field, but that'll happen a fair amount.

There's also the problem of "real estate": you really can't spare an improvement on your Thrower for something that doesn't make him a better positional. For the defensive Thrower, Nerves of Steel is extremely powerful, and even that has to take a backseat to Sure Hands. The O-Thrower really has the same problem: he needs Sure Hands too, but he also needs Accurate. By the time any of them get their third skill, either you don't need a Leader anymore, or you're grasping at it in the hopes that somehow it'll salvage your season (it won't, though it will let you buy another player). Maybe on the offensive Thrower, right after Sure Hands? Accurate can wait; AG4 lets you make short passes with authority anyway.

Hmmm... Wood Elves are really a huge exercise in team management. Orcs don't have these headaches. Even Pro Elves don't have these headaches (who needs a D-Thrower when you have 4 guys who start with MA8 and Nerves of Steel?).

datalorex · Post by **datalorex** » Tue May 29, 2007 1:57 am

mattgslater wrote: I see your point. Maybe Leader is best on the D-Thrower? I don't know. On the one hand, the defensive Thrower plays both sides, while the Thrower who gets Accurate just plays offense (until things get bad; then everybody's on). On the other hand, he's more injury-prone as he's going to spend a lot of time in enemy TZs. I guess the O-Thrower would be more useful: you can only use the RR when he's on the field, but that'll happen a fair amount.

On my team, I give Leader to my Secondary Thrower on his first skill. Leader is too good to not to take. It saves 30 thou in team value and 100 thou in purchasing power.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Tue May 29, 2007 4:10 am

datalorex wrote:On my team, I give Leader to my Secondary Thrower on his first skill. Leader is too good to not to take. It saves 30 thou in team value and 100 thou in purchasing power.

I see what you mean. The first guy, Sure Hands is better because you know you won't blow a TRR to pick up (letting you feel more comfortable about blocks and hand-offs and passes to the other QB), but for the second guy you've already got a SH player, so the Leader RR will become more useful.

Do you spend a lot of effort trying to get this guy up again for SH, or do you give Sure Hands to another guy (apart from your first Thrower) so you can let him progress normally? If so, what do you get him next?