Improving Apothecaries and Introducing Igors....

[Digger Goreman]

One of the counter-arguments to putting an Igor on the Undead rosters is that Regeneration is already better, vis-a-vis, the nerfed apothecary.... (Just for purposes of this particular thread, I'll table any argument....)

What if, in return for the Igor consideration, Apothecaries were changed slightly so that they cause a reroll of the injury at -1 to the six-sider? Maaaayyyyybeeee even leave the player stunned if the six-sider is a "0"? This would definitely eliminate death for ONE player....

thoughts

[Rituro]

Having not played or played against an undead team, I can't offer an opinion on Igor. I have, however, used the apothecary, and only once has my opponent rolled double sixes for the injury. The re-roll system works fine for me, and the added bonus of putting a player back into Reserves if he's only Badly Hurt seals the deal.

(Now, in the interest of full disclosure, I'm basing all this on LRB5. The only experience I have with any other ruleset is a match or two on JavaBowl. )

[Buggrit]

I've been humped on the Apoth rolls more times than I care to remember with opposition coaches getting two sixes one after the other on at least 3 occassions now (and it's always the same useless beserker on my norse team that gets killed!!) granting my opposition a free player in the match I played against a necro team. I'd be all for the -1 on the re-roll so that you KNOW that your Apoth is actually going to do something to detract from the fact that the opposition may have just murdered one of your players, even a Niggling injury would be better in some cases.

[Rituro]

(and it's always the same useless beserker on my norse team that gets killed!!)

But, see, that's when you use the inducement money to hire Helmut Wulf and chainsaw yourself some satisfaction. But I digress...

[mattgslater]

If we're going to give Igor to an Undead team for 50k, we should touch up the Apothecary and slightly buff up the grinding game in compensation. To beef the grind game without major surgery, we could make MB/DP apply to both AV and injury rolls like in 3rd (that would be a very slight overall power up that would play directly against the value of an improved Apothecary), and then maybe improve Sneaky Git by making the user never busted on Armor roll doubles, successful or not (he'd still be vulnerable on injury).

Here's an option for the Apothecary that would be easy and familiar-seeming: Instead of re-rolling the injury roll, negate the injury roll on a 2+ on 1d6 (like in the old days, except that the recipient is still carried off and put in the reserve). Allow Undead to hire Igor (just one) for 50k. Reduce the Wandering Apothecary/Igor option to just 0-1 for 100k. Even better, make the Apothecary a 6+ on 2d6, and allow a team to hire up to two assistants as inducements, each giving a +1 modifier.

An alternative option to improving Igor is to improve the Necromancer. How about letting the Necromancer try to pre-empt the Apothecary? Or giving raised Zombies individualized profiles? Or letting the Necromancer pick between a Skeleton or Zombie? Or letting a Necromancer raise a player on his own team as well? That last option would turn him into sort of a ghoulish version (pun intended) of an Apothecary for Ghouls.

[Amadan]

i voted to leave them as is, only because when my apothecary is used, it's always double miss next game...

but when i roll for my opponents apothecary... i got double 6's, so...

i can handle a miss next game, if i end up killing my opponents catchers

[Bardbarian]

I've been humped on the Apoth rolls more times than I care to remember with opposition coaches getting two sixes one after the other on at least 3 occassions now (and it's always the same useless beserker on my norse team that gets killed!!) granting my opposition a free player in the match I played against a necro team. I'd be all for the -1 on the re-roll so that you KNOW that your Apoth is actually going to do something to detract from the fact that the opposition may have just murdered one of your players, even a Niggling injury would be better in some cases.

--->Just as a question, why have you had the opposing coach roll the d68 for the apothecary roll? It's your coaching staff, shouldn't you be making the roll?

--->Shane

[Digger Goreman]

How bout this: take away the Necromancer "skill", give them a "sorceror" (equivalent to apothecary); take away regen and reduce the prices....

Level the playing field... regen ain't that good....

[Rituro]

--->Just as a question, why have you had the opposing coach roll the d68 for the apothecary roll? It's your coaching staff, shouldn't you be making the roll?

--->Shane

LRB5, pg.17:

Code: Select all

During a match, an Apothecary may attempt to cure a player
who has suffered a Casualty. An Apothecary can be used only
once per match. Immediately after the player suffers the
Casualty, you can use the Apothecary to make your opponent
roll again on the Casualty table (see page 25) and then you
choose which of the two results to apply.

LRB5, pg.25:

Code: Select all

If a player suffers a Casualty because a 10 or more is rolled on
the Injury table, then the opposing coach rolls on the Casualty
table.

The honour of dismantling a poor, injured player goes to the coach who caused the casualty.

[fen]

There's no need to improve the apoth. It's reached a point where it's balanced and interesting.

The major point about regeneration that non-regen coaches fail to realise is mostly regen is not as good as apoths. This is partially because apoth teams can field up to 3 of them if needed (and I'm happy with that) but it's mostly because regeneration on a skeleton or zombie is almost irrelevant. You wouldn't apoth a player like that so having them regen is rarely helpful.
(Please pay attention to the itallicised words before you waste time pointing out scenarios where regen is helpful, I'm already aware of them.)

So great, regenerating linemen are more resilient than apoth team linemen for the most part. But the positionals aren't, you don't have the luxury of saving your on roster apoth for that important injury. While you do get to regen every injury roll, no matter how minor - it's always 50-50 - you can't save that extra level of protection for a key positional. And Ghouls are just screwed completely when they get hit, which is a major reason why Undead become so fragile later on, 4 of their positionals are easy meat for opposing teams.

Khemri and Nurgle on the other hand don't need such a hand up. They have regen on all their key positionals, decent AV/bashing and perform very well. They should be excluded from getting any help, just like Khemri are excluded from Raise Dead.

Plus, as a side point I'd like to return peoples attention to the cost of regen, it inflates most players costs greatly.

Regeneration is only better than Apoths in the short-sighted view.

All this said I'd vote for the following (which is not an option in the poll).
Undead and Necromantic teams gain an Igor on roster possibly losing Raise Dead, but that ability is 99% irrelevant so they could keep it for all I care. Khemri and Nurgle do not get such a boost, they don't need it. Igors are not changed mechanically.
Apoths are kept exactly as is with 1 on roster and 2 more available to induce (but probably at a reduced cost.)