Block, Guard & Dodge modifications

[Podfrey]

Last weekend some time was spent discussing the state of the modern game and the one thing that kept cropping up was the frequency with which certain skills are taken (to the exclusion of others) "forcing" a particular style of play which is regarded as having a high % chance of success, i.e. the grinding play. The three skills that came up as causing this were (in order) Block, Guard and Dodge.

We therefore looked at options to reduce the effectiveness of each of these so that coaches had to make more of a decision between taking them and other skills on offer.

Block

The idea was to split this into two separate skills; an offensive one and a defensive one. The idea being that the offensive one represented being able to knock people down by bashing into them, whereas the defensive one represents the ability to stay on one's feet in a ruck. For those players with Block currently as a skill then it would be decided whether this was the offensive version (e.g. Blitzer-types, Norse, etc) or the defensive version (Dwarf Longbeards, etc).


Guard

A number of alternatives came up for this and, to be honest, none were considered vastly superior to the others. The options included:
- a player with Guard cancels other (opposing) players with Guard in their tackle zones, and vice versa (simplest)
- Guard can only be used once in your turn and once in the opponent's turn (better, but may be hard to track the use of)
- Guard ignores the first enemy tackle zone when calculating assists (i.e. normally the presence of 1 opposing player's TZ prevents the assist, in the case of Guard it would require 2 opposing player's TZ to prevent the assist (probably the best in terms of fairness, but a potential nightmare to explain in writing)


Dodge

As with Block, the Dodge skill to be split into two separate skills; one which affects the block dice and one which provides a dodge reroll. Tackle would be changed to continue to affect both.

Side note: If Tackle didn't continue to affect both then either a new skill to affect the other would need to be created or you would end up with either 2+ with RR dodging OR players that don't go down at least 33% of the time (skull + dodge splat)

Again the current Dodge players would be split, e.g. Catchers, Witch Elves, Wardancers, etc would be rerolls, Amazons would be block Dice


Aim

The whole aim of this was to try and introduce some new tactics (like, god forbid, PASSING the ball) to the game and try and reduce the reliance on the grinding, blocking plays.

[Pipey]

Sounds interesting in theory. Much more sensible than some of the other block-related debate...

This was kind of my motivation behind encouraging coaches not to take block, guard, dodge etc. in my skill choices post.

All of this would require a radical overhaul of the races of course. Maybe one for a future LRB (though I have to admit I'd like the gap between LRB revisions to be longer than it currently is to let things settle).

What you're suggesting with block and dodge sounds sensible. How about splitting guard into defensive/offensive versions this way:

1. your assist is never cancelled in your opponents turn
2. your assist is never cancelled in your own turn

(can't think of decent names at the moment maybe some variants along the lines of guard/shield/protect/support. I dunno...)

[Mad Jackal]

edited.

I don't think that splitting the skills would do what is desired. But I have no data to back it up.

[mattgslater]

Or, much simpler...

Keep all the skills as-is and make roll #2 at 11 SPP. Yeah, everybody still prioritizes Block above other skills, but now you're getting an early shot at a second-tier skill.

I do think Guard might be a little bit overpowered, but I think the solution doesn't lie in nerfing Guard; it's simple and easy, a nice little elegant rules package, and it would suck to go at it with a saw. How about increasing the casualty count to reduce the relative value of an assist on a strength team? Then you'll see a bit less Guard on some teams, especially if you do it by improving Mighty Blow (slightly) to give Guard some competition. If the increased damage changes the balance of the game, then you can introduce rules to mitigate its effect on leagues or to encourage teams to hire more reserves (like back in the old days when you didn't care much about handicap).

Block and Dodge are overpowered, but that's fundamental to the game. Play with it at your peril; I think it's best to simply accept that one or two skills are weighted for early selection.

[Thadrin]

I think Block and Dodge are too much a part of team balance to be changed. No players start with Guard, most teams have at least one position with Block, and Dodge is not uncommon.

Rebalancing everything would be such a complete nightmare, and - especially the Block skill - become staples for the otherwise limited Lineman.

I'm not saying this is a bad idea, more a nightmare to test, balance and implement. Its too big a change to the very fabric of the game.

Now...the first change to guard seems like a perfectly good idea, and would certainly make some scenarios less of a headache to work out, while also giving some interesting new twists to how the skill would be used.

[Grumbledook]

I don't honestly see a need to change it

there is more talk about keeping a stable ruleset than for people taking too much block

[Jural]

I would agree that any change to block, dodge, or statlines (extra attibute, etc) needs to come in a new ruleset, it can't be fit into the current ruleset at all.

I don't honestly see a need to change it

there is more talk about keeping a stable ruleset than for people taking too much block

[Pipey]

tbh Grum I agree with you too.

Still worth having a debate though.

[mlindsay2706]

i dont think theres a debate needed. whats wrong with block all of a sudden ?

now dodge and guard to?
i think theyre totally fine. if your going to change them your going to change BB. block and dodge, not guard so much, are key parts to the core of BB

[mattgslater]

If the problem is that skills are sort-of-tiered, I don't think that's a problem in-and-of itself, so long as many players can't get more than one of the best skills under normal circumstances (meaning a few have to be clearly better overall selections for individuals than others), some high-ranked skills are best put on only one or two guys, and many bottom-tier skills have good synergy with better skills. Right now, I see this happening. Sure, if one Strength skill (for instance) is clearly better than all of the others, we can improve one or two among the better ones as long as we keep an eye on game balance, but if there's still a clear choice for a certain position on doubles, or if there's one skill the game steers you toward (as long as it doesn't steer too hard), that's more useful as a balance tool than it is unfriendly to team variety.

[Thadrin]

Just so its mentioned, this isn't actually a new idea...Zombie (I think it was) raised it a few years back. You can probably find them if you care to search for them. (I'd guess using "Block" as your search string would be silly though)

Of course, the rules have changes a lot since then and a new debate is certainly meritted, even though I think the rules now NEED some stability (the only exception being that I would possibly add or change some rosters...the usual suspects.)

[Patchwork]

I don't think your solution (I admit I also don't think there is a problem with either skill) for block and dodge works at all well. Skills that increase reliability in a coachs game plan are always going to be picked over situational skills that are nice now and then or for certain plays. I know if I was playing an aglilty team all you've done is increased the obviousness of my first two skill picks to my first four skill picks and if I was playing a strength team my first pick into my first and second.

I don't mind your first two sujestions for guard althought I'm not sure it is needed. You really need to get that third option writen down clearly though, if it can't be then there is no chance of it being used in a rule book.

PS I prefer passing teams

[Vero]

potential nightmare

Guard, LRB5
A player with this skill may assist an offensive or defensive block even if he is in another player's tackle zone. This skill may not be used to assist a foul.

Guard, suggested nightmare
A player with this skill may assist an offensive or defensive block even if he is in a single opposing player's tackle zone. This skill may not be used to assist a foul.

[Joemanji]

Just so its mentioned, this isn't actually a new idea...Zombie (I think it was) raised it a few years back. You can probably find them if you care to search for them.

Here: viewtopic.php?t=3620

I'd definitely like to see the Block split in testing. It seems like an elegant idea to me. The main objection in Zombie's thread seemed to be that everyone would still take Block first, but now it would take two Improvement rolls rather than one. With the advent of Wrestle, I find that harder to believe, since you can use that for turnover prevention. But even still, wouldn't that be the point? To make Block more precious / less prevalent? And thus increase turnovers at high TVs to keep the game more interesting?

I'm not convinced about the Dodge split, but again I can see some merit in testing it. My main concern would be that Tackle would just replace Block as the prime pick, since it would negate 2 skills instead of 1 (in terms of TV you'd be paying for more skills).

Guard I see no need at all to change, since to me it is only really that great in combination with Block (on the same player or a teammate). If you split block, then you would automatically weaken Guard. But the one-TZ only seems the most simple were a change tested.

Galak should create the MBBL3 for just such a reason (and perhaps Right Stuff/Tackle).

[cyagen]

I know I'm a little late on that debate but what about making block a S skill? Dodge is not a G skill, why should block? It would also reduce the number of dreaded dodgers in all teams.

Although if that would be done, there would be a need to look at the complete game balance since BG and Mummies would now have access to block, but is that not the point?

Just thinking out lound here.