Turn overs and Touchdowns

Azoth · Post by **Azoth** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:03 pm

Hi,

I have a simple sounded questions and am curious about your opinions:

Given an offensive player stands in the End Zone, the ball lays on an empty square besides him. Another offensive player tries to pick up the ball and fails (which causes a turn over). The scattering ball jumps in the hands of the End-Zone-player who caughts it. What happens?

a) The turn over would happen after the ball comes to a final hold - therefor the turn overr has no effect cause it is a TD.
b) The turnover happens as soon as the pick up fails, so the TD happens in the turn of the other player
c) The turnover happens and as the player does not move into the End Zone the defending team has still a chance to stop the TD.

I think a) is correct and think that c) is the least likely (~0%) possibility. But b) could also be true?

nyarlathotep · Post by **nyarlathotep** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:33 pm

On page 15 of LRB5.0:

SCORING IN THE OPPONENT’S TURN
In some rare cases a team will score a touchdown in the
opponent’s turn. For example, a player holding the ball could be
pushed into the End Zone by a block. If one of your players is
holding the ball in the opposing team's End Zone at any point
during your opponent's turn then your team scores a touchdown
immediately, but must move their Turn marker one space along
the Turn track to represent the extra time the players spend
celebrating this unusual method of scoring!

So you would move your opponent's turn marker to the next turn, get your TD, and end their turn and your next turn. Unless I'm reading this wrong...

Azoth · Post by **Azoth** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:43 pm

you're right with what you quoted. But is this TD not happening still during my turn? When do the turnover for a failed pick up happens? Instantly when the pick up fails or as soon as the ball comes to final rest?

Azoth · Post by **Azoth** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:54 pm

A coach that suffers a turnover is not allowed to take any further
actions that turn, and any action being taken ends immediately
even if it was only partially completed. Make armour and injury
rolls for players that were knocked down, and if the ball was
dropped then roll to see where it bounces too normally.

Following this it seems as
a) the players action ends instantly. No firther action is allowed (does that include scoring a TD???)
b) the ball is not dropped - because, simply spoken, nobody was holding it. So the sentence "if the ball was dropped then roll to see where it bounces too normally" doesn't apply. Here especially the word "normally" does not apply, thus the scattering of the ball is no longer in the moving team's turn.

But still, I can't believe that this is the intended way the rules should be understood.

Btw, scoring a TD is also mentioned as a turn over

Zoot · Post by **Zoot** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 6:55 pm

PICKING UP THE BALL
If the final modified score equals or beats the required roll, then
the player succeeds in picking up the ball. Place the ball on the
player’s base to show that he has picked it up and carry on with
the player’s turn. If the D6 roll is less than the required total, then
the player drops the ball, which will bounce one square. If the
player drops the ball then his team suffers a turnover and their
turn ends immediately.

I'd say the TD happens in the opponents turn. Under the Throwing section it specifically says the turnover doesn't happen until after the ball is scattered because other players may catch it preventing the turnover. However in this section it states that when picking up the ball the turn ends immediately after dropping the ball. Even if the bounce happens before the turnover, the turn would end immediately following the bounce and the catch would happen in the opponent's turn. At least that's how I understand it.

Post by **GalakStarscraper** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 7:13 pm

Zoot wrote:
PICKING UP THE BALL
If the final modified score equals or beats the required roll, then
the player succeeds in picking up the ball. Place the ball on the
player’s base to show that he has picked it up and carry on with
the player’s turn. If the D6 roll is less than the required total, then
the player drops the ball, which will bounce one square. If the
player drops the ball then his team suffers a turnover and their
turn ends immediately.
I'd say the TD happens in the opponents turn. Under the Throwing section it specifically says the turnover doesn't happen until after the ball is scattered because other players may catch it preventing the turnover. However in this section it states that when picking up the ball the turn ends immediately after dropping the ball. Even if the bounce happens before the turnover, the turn would end immediately following the bounce and the catch would happen in the opponent's turn. At least that's how I understand it.

I agree with Zoot's post.

Galak

nyarlathotep · Post by **nyarlathotep** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:22 pm

Ok, so quick recap:

Failed pickup ends team A's turn immediately.

Team B's team turn begins immediately. Move turn marker for Team B forward 1 space. Scatter Ball.

Catch ball with Team A's player in Team B's endzone. Team B's turn ends immediately.

Team A's team celebrates, losing a turn. Move Team A's turn marker forward 1 space, essentially as an accounting exercise.

Prepare to kickoff to Team B, unless the preceding Team A turn move ended the half.

Correct?

Now, if team A failed the pickup in the top of turn 8, caught the ball in the bottom of turn 8, the lost turn wouldn't actually happen, right?

Additionally, if Team A dropped the ball at the end of turn 8, there would be no score because the halftime happens, right?

Mad Jackal · Post by **Mad Jackal** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:28 pm

GalakStarscraper wrote:
Zoot wrote:
PICKING UP THE BALL
If the final modified score equals or beats the required roll, then
the player succeeds in picking up the ball. Place the ball on the
player’s base to show that he has picked it up and carry on with
the player’s turn. If the D6 roll is less than the required total, then
the player drops the ball, which will bounce one square. If the
player drops the ball then his team suffers a turnover and their
turn ends immediately.
I'd say the TD happens in the opponents turn. Under the Throwing section it specifically says the turnover doesn't happen until after the ball is scattered because other players may catch it preventing the turnover. However in this section it states that when picking up the ball the turn ends immediately after dropping the ball. Even if the bounce happens before the turnover, the turn would end immediately following the bounce and the catch would happen in the opponent's turn. At least that's how I understand it.
I agree with Zoot's post.

Galak

Galak.
That can't be true. Did one of us read the scenario incorrectly ?

I read the question as A Reaver Blitzer is in the end-zone and the Reaver Thrower fails to pick up the ball - using Sure Hands, and the Ball Bounces to the Reaver Blitzer.

What you've just said is that the Reaver Blitzer doesn't "catch" the ball until the Gouged Eye's turn. This would mean that the Reaver Blitzer would not be able to use a team re-roll on the catch, but a Gouged Eye Lineman could if the ball bounced to him ?

Why in the world would this be any different than a failed pass action or failed catch where the action or turn doesn't change until the ball stops moving ? Sure a turn-over is avoided if the pass is caught by the moving team while a pick up is still a turn-over. But why would the turn-over occur first ?

I'm going to have to check the pbem tool , as I may have to report a bug....

My answer to the question would be that the moving team got very LUCKY and scored the Touchdown on thier turn. Otherwise the defending team gets penalized a whole turn for the offense making a mistake. (A very bad ruling in my opinion.)

Mad Jackal · Post by **Mad Jackal** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:29 pm

nyarlathotep posted while I was typing my long one....

in response

I think that is what Galak is saying, but that just doesn't ring true to me.

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:44 pm

I would argue that the fact you (according to the turnover section on p.7) have to see where the ball ends up, then unstun players BEFORE your opponent starts his turn means you would still score in your own turn.

Mad Jackal · Post by **Mad Jackal** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:52 pm

Darkson wrote:I would argue that the fact you (according to the turnover section on p.7) have to see where the ball ends up, then unstun players BEFORE your opponent starts his turn means you would still score in your own turn.

Yes.

I agree with Darkson.

Not to mention have the ability to play cards. Or use a wizzard. (After your turn but before an opponent's regardless of ending in a turn-over.)

There is just no -way that the opponent is supposed to move his turn marker and start his turn for the player to catch it on the opponents turn.

The resolving the bouncy bouncy of the ball is part of the resolution of the moving player's action. "Turned-over" or not. Then the turn ends

(Note this same ruling applies to fumbled passes and failed blitz or block actions too doesn't it ?)

Azoth · Post by **Azoth** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:35 pm

why did I knew that this questions starts lots of discussion... I'm glad to see that I really found something that doesn't seem to be ruled straight forward and obviously needs clarification in the rules or FAQ.

By the way, in our league exactly this happens - so it is not just a theoretical question...

Darkson · Post by **Darkson** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:46 pm

It doesn't need clarifiying, it just needs the rules to be read carefully.

After a turnover, but before your opponent starts his turn, you must see where the ball scatters to.
It bounces into the square of a player standing in the endzone, who catches it (catching is not an action).
The action has now ended (as an action cannot end without the ball coming to rest).
If, at the end of an action, a player from your side is holding the ball in the endzone, a TD is scored.
Then set-up, and your opponent starts his turn.

It's all in the rules - perhasps not in one section, but all the points above are there.

Mad Jackal · Post by **Mad Jackal** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:06 pm

Darkson wrote:It doesn't need clarifiying, it just needs the rules to be read carefully.

After a turnover, but before your opponent starts his turn, you must see where the ball scatters to.
It bounces into the square of a player standing in the endzone, who catches it (catching is not an action).
The action has now ended (as an action cannot end without the ball coming to rest).
If, at the end of an action, a player from your side is holding the ball in the endzone, a TD is scored.
Then set-up, and your opponent starts his turn.

It's all in the rules - perhasps not in one section, but all the points above are there.

I agree Darkson. But... Galak has ruled differently above which must be a simple mistake. I'm hoping he comes back soon to set it all right.

That is one of the things I have told everyone that I taught to play. "The ball must be stationary before the next turn starts. With the exception of blitz! turns from the kick-off..."

Azoth · Post by **Azoth** » Mon Jul 23, 2007 10:32 pm

now I think you are right. with scoring a TD it says

A team scores a touchdown during their turn when one of their
players is standing in the opposing team’s End Zone while
holding the ball at the end of any of your players' Actions.

And as the bouncing ball happens before the action of the pick-upper ends, it is a TD during your turn - and dancing and waving with pom-poms happen...