Starting Woodelves in developed LRB5 league

datalorex · Post by **datalorex** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:56 am

mattgslater wrote:He won't be getting 700k in inducements forever. I agree that it isn't wise to start with a tree, but you'll want one quickly; only an Apothecary is a better early purchase, and maybe not even that if you're constantly getting inducements. Save up and buy one, then hope he skills up quickly (the first skill isn't too hard, once you've mastered the ability to keep your drives short). Early-on, you won't have to worry about putting your good players to the line, and by the time you get a tree, you'll be well-enough developed to keep your opponent feeling pressured and your drives short.

Buying the tree later gives you an extra player also: instead of paying 100k for a re-roll, and still having 11 guys, you've got 11 guys before you buy the tree, so when you get the tree, he counts as your 12th guy, effectively saving you 50k. You pay a little cash value in inducements (100k gets you a 100k RR, but it takes 150k for a 120k Tree), but frankly that's minor.

3FF isn't a risk; if you think ACs/CLs are important, buy them after the start. If you don't like FF, take 1FF and upgrade a Lino to a positional (that still leaves you 8 linos). Catchers, with their MA9, can do stuff that Linos can't, but that ST2 makes them somewhat limited. If you don't like that, a Thrower is just like a Lino with an extra skill and an extra category. By no means should you feel any urge to actually THROW with him (at least not more than anyone else) unless you really need it to succeed, but it's really nice to have the Pass skill if you need a quick reset.

I agree with everything you said. AC/CLs may be a good purchase in tournaments or when starting a rookie league, but you don't take them on a rookie team entering a veteran league. You can't buy FF later, but you can buy AC/CLs later.

Duke Jan · Post by **Duke Jan** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 8:49 am

Actually, I'd not start with more than 2 FF. In a developed league you're likely to lose the first matches and that means any FF over 2 is possibly 10k wasted.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:58 pm

In that case, Duke Jan, do you think it would be wiser just to start with 1? After all, you've got 3 points to spend after stock 11 plus 4x WD/Tree/RR, and 2 points will upgrade a lino, but one point can only be banked or spent on FF/AC/CL.

It's kind of interesting: is it because of or despite Woodies' initial purchases fit into such neat either/or packages (4 things for 5 points each, plus one little 2-point decision and 1 FF) that their starting roster decisions are subject to more debate than many other teams with more varied construction schemes? I understand that the big factor there is just a matter of cost, expensive linos and expensive positionals and all that, but how do you think this "positional 5-point packaging"dynamic affects the question?

datalorex · Post by **datalorex** » Mon Jul 30, 2007 3:16 am

mattgslater wrote:In that case, Duke Jan, do you think it would be wiser just to start with 1? After all, you've got 3 points to spend after stock 11 plus 4x WD/Tree/RR, and 2 points will upgrade a lino, but one point can only be banked or spent on FF/AC/CL.

Geeze, have you read anything I've written. lol. In an established leaque, with a 1 FF, any less than average roll for Fame (6 or less) means you are more than likely going to get doubled up for Fame (since your opponents with have 7 or more) which means more money for your opponent at the end AND you are virtually certain to lose all of the kick off table results that require rolling against your opponent. But with a 3 FF, your "7" (1-6) becomes "9" (3-6) meaning you won't get doubled up very easily.

Tante Kaethe · Post by **Tante Kaethe** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:53 am

Thanks again to all of you for the great input

!!!

I think I will go the following route:

2 WDs 240K
1 Thrower 90K
8 Lineelves 560 K
2 RRs 100K
1 FF 10K

The reasons are:
- I need 2 RRs, esp. as there will definately be at least one other Rookie-team (Lizards) which I'll be playing regularly and where I won't get any inducements
- I want to start with 2 WDs
- Thrower: use him to get a skill early to take the Leader skill. After that I'll try not to use him so the Lineelves also have a chance to get Completion-SPPs
- I won't win FAME against any of the developed teams and I don't really care if they have FAME +1 or +2
- first buy Apo, after that a Treeman (or Catchers?)

I'm really looking forward to playing some pansy Elves for the first time

!

Cheers

Tante Käthe

Duke Jan · Post by **Duke Jan** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:04 am

I still wouldn't put two walking targets on a rookie team in a developed league. But then, it may get the opponent to go war dancer hunting and make mistakes. I like 3FF from the start, which is the most important reason not to start with war dancers. After all its not the opponent that kills most war dancers, it's the 1 and the skull.

PubBowler · Post by **PubBowler** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 10:41 am

Duke Jan wrote: I like 3FF from the start, which is the most important reason not to start with war dancers.

You can start with two Wardancers and FF3. Just fill out the roster with lineman. I haven't heard anyone saying that a Thrower or Catcher are essential to start with.
And I wouldn't believe them if I did.

Duke Jan · Post by **Duke Jan** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:43 am

Actually I buy catchers before war dancers, they're quicker and less likely to get hurt. There's no players essential to start with for wood elves. Linemen can do just about everythig.

PubBowler · Post by **PubBowler** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 11:54 am

Duke Jan wrote: Actually I buy catchers before war dancers, they're quicker and less likely to get hurt.

Now I know my lack of Wood Elf experience is showing. I don't understand why Catchers are less likely to get hurt than Wardancers.

+1ST and Block must help surely...

Duke Jan · Post by **Duke Jan** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:10 pm

You're most likely to avoid putting your catchers in places they get hurt while that's exactly where you put your War Dancers. It more than compensates the ST and block.

Cramy · Post by **Cramy** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 12:55 pm

Glad to see that you will be playing the supreme race. There aren't enough Elves playing BB these days. Although I have to admit that the Darkies are better, but oh well.

datalorex · Post by **datalorex** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 6:58 pm

Tante Kaethe wrote:- I won't win FAME against any of the developed teams and I don't really care if they have FAME +1 or +2

Tante Käthe

You can lead a horse to water...

Mad Jackal · Post by **Mad Jackal** » Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:08 pm

datalorex wrote:
Tante Kaethe wrote:- I won't win FAME against any of the developed teams and I don't really care if they have FAME +1 or +2

Tante Käthe
You can lead a horse to water...

But if you can get him to float on his back, then you are a genius.

But realistically, I don't have any complaints about his start, he after-all is playing it , not me.

I agree with him that trying to catch up in FF is silly.

Lets think for a moment. If you spend all your start up money to make your team as popular as the Big Boys with massive profits already in, then the fans will love you early. But soon as they realize you are populated by unskilled players who can not compete with the teams on the field. They will leave steadily until soon you are left with only the crappy players (if they haven't all died all ready.)
.
That's my thought process on the whole chasing FF bit. The way FF functions is that is you average around 50/50 you'll pull to 7 FF. If you don't get to 50/50 soon enough then you'll fall.

And the guys in the local league around here swore by some 7 FF all line-elf start... Of course they still think Wrestle is totally broken.

lol.

(Apparently some undead ghoul made good use of it to win the championship...) I tried to explain that some players like ghouls can be really good with it, but that in no way makes it better than block used to be. But that is still thier position.

datalorex · Post by **datalorex** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:15 am

Mad Jackal wrote: But if you can get him to float on his back, then you are a genius.

But realistically, I don't have any complaints about his start, he after-all is playing it , not me.

I agree with him that trying to catch up in FF is silly.

haha, genius....right. lol.

I never said anything about catching up in FF. That is silly. The reason you want more FF when starting a new team in a developed league is so that you don't get doubled up on the Fame roll as easy. It is WAY harder to double up 3FF than 1FF. And you won't go down in FF if you lose anyway since the only way to roll lower than 3 is to get snake eyes. So when you do start winning (even if you lose 5 games in a row), you go up to FF4 instead of 1. Doesn't that sound better?

And when you get doubled up on the Fame roll, kick off become much more hazerdous. And kickoff results have a much bigger impact on the game than what most player let on.

You can buy CL and AC later, but not FF. That in itself is enough reason to get FF while you can.