Pro Elves and the LOS

[Big Daddy]

Just learning the game and I'm going to start playing a league in a few weeks. I have a couple of games under my belt and I'm really wondering what to do with my linemen on the LOS when defending the kick-off.

They invariably seem to get knocked down on defence straight away. I'm looking for tips to help them out or ways to set up that give them the best chance of getting to safety during my turn. I expect the league to be fairly bashy.

I am also looking for advice when they start to acquire skills. Block and dodge seem to be no-brainers for pretty much all my linemen but is there any merit in looking at dodge and fend upgrades and using them on the LOS? Or is it better to leave the LOS to injured and unskilled players until late in the league and use skilled lineman to defend in depth or penetrate the opponents half?

Thoughts appreciated

[voyagers_uk]

Put Wrestle on 2 of them and make the opponent go 2's up on them to be sure of the block dice result, otherwise you could weaken his cage/offence at the first hurdle.

[Cramy]

I'm a DE coach, but here's how I would develop Elf linos.

Linos:
Block and Dodge are their bread and butter. But you also want a lino with kick. I like to have a wrestle and strip ball lino as well (to get the ball lose). As wrestle and block on the same player is not such a good idea (as they affect the same dice result), I like to give wrestle to a lino instead of a blitzer. And wrestle/strip ball is great at getting the ball lose. I have not tried the dodge/fend combo. I would probably get fend after block and dodge though. On doubles, guard all the way.

For the positionals, I will let Elf coaches speak-up.

[wesleytj]

I like Dodge/Fend/Sidestep for the elves on the line. Block/Diving Tackle for 2 of them, one on each wide zone, and a kicker in the middle. Doubles is always guard.

[Big Daddy]

Thanks for the tips on the skills guys. I will be taking block as the first skill for at least the first few linemen. Both down has really hurt me in the past few games. I guess it will become more evident what secondary skills to pick up as the league progresses.

Any advice on set up? Should I try and support the linemen at the LOS or set up further back and let them take their beat-downs? Does it depend on the team I'm facing?

Thanks,

BD

[datalorex]

Thanks for the tips on the skills guys. I will be taking block as the first skill for at least the first few linemen. Both down has really hurt me in the past few games. I guess it will become more evident what secondary skills to pick up as the league progresses.

Any advice on set up? Should I try and support the linemen at the LOS or set up further back and let them take their beat-downs? Does it depend on the team I'm facing?

Thanks,

BD

The more lineelves you put on the LOS, the more linelves that get knocked down. Therefore, you should usually only put 3 guys on the line.

[Big Daddy]

On defence I only set up the 3 on the LOS. I'm trying to determine if I should have more players a square off the LOS to assist in the following turn or if I should be trying to run the defence a little further back to try and keep the number of blocks down.

Is it better to give a little territory early on the drive and perhaps make it easier to penetrate a player or two into the back half and try for a turnover. Or should I be trying to hold the line?

[mattgslater]

3 sacrifices in the middle of the LOS, generally the most expendable players; create a rotation or a priority list or whatever, and always set your journeymen if any up on the end that you think your opponent will blitz into. Getting a skill takes a guy off the line, at least for the first couple linos to go up. There are ways to decrease your casualty rate on the LOS (Block, Dodge, Wrestle), but none of them really matter a whole lot in a cost/benefit comparison. Sorry. Conversely, this means that the first 2-3 linos with skills don't have to focus on line-skills, and can be used as linebackers.

It's not the line that wins games. One trick that works well is to have a row of guys one or two squares back, like this:

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Two squares back ensures you don't get killed on a quick snap, and can give you a little more flexibility against faster teams. One square back leaves you vulnerable to quick snaps (5/36 chance), but gives you a fast start off the line -- your Blitzers can score in two turns without GFI from one back, and Linos/Throwers can do it with only one turn's worth of GFI (2 rolls), but need to GFI both turns from two back.

Your vulnerable spots are the corners and the inside backs; expect those guys to soak up the Blitz. Side Step on linemen is absolutely huge for this reason; you can keep the opponent in their half, and that lets you get a chance at snatching the ball. If you like having a lot of positionals, consider giving Kick to a Thrower instead of a Lineman, because he'll be better situated in an optimal set-up (next to one of the inside backers), and because you're likely to be less tempted to set him on the line than a stock lino anyway, though you shouldn't be. Unlike on other Elf teams, the Thrower positional on a PE team can be thought of as just another lino, but it's even easier to get him that one SPP, so he'll go up a touch more quickly. Once he does, you can keep him off the line just like any other lino.

[Big Daddy]

Thanks for the time to put that one together Matt. I generally set up like your first example to watch out for quick snap. From there though I seem to get caught in a slugfest. Albeit I have played bashy type teams who are keen to engage in that type of play.

I haven't had much joy trying to dodge off from them or bash back. The dodging hasn't been great as I find I get 2-3 men off the line and then a failed dodge roll puts an end to proceedings. Blocks I have had mixed success with but is clearly risky for the non-block lino's to engage in. Both down has been a bit of a curse!

I have good results with using blitzers and catchers to rush the ball carrier but the support to convert it into continued possesion and a TD has been lacking as my lino's are generally prone due to failed dodges or getting a fist to the face on the LOS or nearby.

[Cramy]

Thanks for the time to put that one together Matt. I generally set up like your first example to watch out for quick snap. From there though I seem to get caught in a slugfest. Albeit I have played bashy type teams who are keen to engage in that type of play.

I haven't had much joy trying to dodge off from them or bash back. The dodging hasn't been great as I find I get 2-3 men off the line and then a failed dodge roll puts an end to proceedings. Blocks I have had mixed success with but is clearly risky for the non-block lino's to engage in. Both down has been a bit of a curse!

I have good results with using blitzers and catchers to rush the ball carrier but the support to convert it into continued possesion and a TD has been lacking as my lino's are generally prone due to failed dodges or getting a fist to the face on the LOS or nearby.

And that's why I usually give dodge before block to my linos on the line. Yes, they will go down on both down results. But they will stay up on a know-down/push-back. But when they get back up, they can dodge away must easier due to the dodge reroll.

Most teams will have a couple of tacklers, max. If you get half your team or more with dodge, then the tacklers can't keep-up with all the dodgers. The tackler puts a TZ on your potential receiver? Well, dodge a lino off the line and he becomes the potential receiver.

I believe that dodge has saved me way more casualties than block, simply because I have more success at running away. Dodge increases your maneuverability tremendously, so you can stay away from the nasty folks. As somebody mentioned to me when playing against his Orcs (and I had 8 dodge players on the pitch) "man, defence against this team is like trying to hold water". He only had one tackler. I put a TZ on him with a no-skill lino. Maximize your maneuverability IMO.

If you play against Dwarves a lot though, then all I can say is good luck

[Quadrasonic]

Having a good number of well thought out defensive lines can make all the difference in the world.

Of course it depends a lot on what you are fielding and what you are facing, but some that I have had luck with include:

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[ClayInfinity]

I took a Pro-Elf team to the Grand Final (but lost! ) with an overall 10-0-3 record and I found that the wrestle / dodge combo is invaluable for the LOS elves.

Dodge saves you, wrestle saves you and the only way an AV roll eventuates is with a straight POW.

I also agree that the dodge helps as well on the dodge away play...

Nevertheless on short drives or when the game is a dead rubber, I will throw skill-less line elves onto the LoS... and with TV management being an issue (as your elf positionals will skill up very quickly causing TV bloat) I dont actually mind the odd line elf death...

And I also take +AV when it comes up as well rather than +MA for line elves... they are there to soak up the punishment rather than trying to get the extra speed to score themselves.

However am yet to get a line-elf to his 3rd skill and after Wrestle / Dodge, I would probably start to look at Side Step. If the league is a bit bash heavy, you dont really need Diving Tackle because lets face it, how many Orcs / Dwarves / Beastmen dodge from an elf!

If your league is dominated by Agile teams, then yes Diving Tackle would be an asset.

[Big Daddy]

Thanks for the input guys. I can see the merit to going with dodge/wrestle. Making holes in the oppo's line during their own turn looks like it could be a serious advantage provided you don't get a kicking before the turn ends.

It's probably more useful than having block against most bashy teams as being down will likely hurt them more in terms of lost movement, tackle zones etc than the elves.

So what do you guys think of this type of skill progression for 6 lineman (not allowing for doubles, stat boosts or deaths, lol)?

2 x Dodge then Wrestle
2 x Block then Dodge
1 x Kick then Leader
1 x Dirty Player then Sneeky Git.

*Edit*

thanks for those diagrams too quadrasonic Care to describe when you think you would use each set-up in a little detail?

[Quadrasonic]

thanks for those diagrams too quadrasonic Care to describe when you think you would use each set-up in a little detail?

Well, The first one is very reliable. Just the fact that it is off-center throws some players for a loop. It is especially nice when your opponent has two or more big guys. You force him to choose between setting both up next to each other on one side of the field or making a generally unreliable move or blitz action with one of them. It is also a dead-hard line if your LOS players are are each a point stronger than anything your opponent has (not likely with Elves, I know).

The second is nice vs a team you know will have no trouble with your LOS players, but you still don't want any holes easily made. You also leave each of his blockers with a much more difficult choice of whether to follow up or not, and if one of them has frenzy you can often get him into a 1 die or even 2 against situation.

The third is nice when yours and your opponent's teams are all entirely Strength 3. Make sure to put your strongest/blodgiest/stand-firmiest players in the end positions in the back row as they are your only weak points. If your opponent wants to blitz anywhere else he will have to go one die or set his guard players up for a nice beating on your turn.

Another good one is:

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Here you want your 4 most resilient (Dodge/Wrestle perhaps) players on the LOS and give your opponent the same tough choice about following up or not. Also if his players are of equal Strength to yours then he may be funny enough to put twice as many of them on the line as you have just so he can get two die blocks on each of your LOS players, thus leaving his backfield unprotected. The other nice thing here is that with a guy directly behind another in your wide zones, no holes can be made, and they are now your strongest points rather than your weakest.

[Cramy]

Thanks for the input guys. I can see the merit to going with dodge/wrestle. Making holes in the oppo's line during their own turn looks like it could be a serious advantage provided you don't get a kicking before the turn ends.

It's probably more useful than having block against most bashy teams as being down will likely hurt them more in terms of lost movement, tackle zones etc than the elves.

So what do you guys think of this type of skill progression for 6 lineman (not allowing for doubles, stat boosts or deaths, lol)?

2 x Dodge then Wrestle
2 x Block then Dodge
1 x Kick then Leader
1 x Dirty Player then Sneeky Git.

*Edit*

thanks for those diagrams too quadrasonic Care to describe when you think you would use each set-up in a little detail?

I find that the kick lineman is a good guy to add wrestle and strip ball to. He plays on defence away from the LoS, so he is a free safety ready to hit the catcher with the ball in your back field. With blodging sidestepping blitzers to help him out, he is doing good. Although a catcher could get wrestle and strip ball as well ... not sure which one is best.

Don't give leader to a lineman. They need a doubles for getting leader. Doubles on Elf linemen is always guard.