Pro Elves and the LOS

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Thu Aug 16, 2007 6:33 pm

Dodge/Wrestle is good. I find that it's good to do with later improvements; let the first few guys go up and get skills that make them essentially into positionals, then go beef up your sacrifices. The bonus is that these guys are also good on offense, as blockers for your numerous, awesome receivers.

As a Pro Elf team, you're pretty much guaranteed to start with two guys with Side Step (Blitzers), and all your guys are ST3 with A access. Four ST3 guys with Side Step is nearly unassailable, and almost no other team can even try. I would prioritize 2x Side Step right below Kick for that reason. If you don't see it, then go Dodge. If you do see it, give those guys Dodge 2nd. It's important that SS go to linos, as Catchers are too expensive and Throwers have better things to do.

If you're not fielding a heavy complement of positionals, +MA is huge. If you are (and you should be with Pro Elves, unlike other elves), +AV is better, even if it's a wash on an unskilled guy.

So, assuming no doubles/+Stats, here's how I'd go:
A) Kick, then Block/Guard (+MA on 10), or put Kick then Leader/Guard (+MA on 10) on Thrower instead
B) Side Step, then Dodge/Dodge (+AV on 10)
C) Side Step, then Dodge/Dodge (+AV on 10)
D) Dodge, then Wrestle/Guard (skill on 10)
E) Dodge, then Wrestle /Guard (skill on 10)
F) Dodge, then Side Step/Guard (skill on 10)

Doubles: Guard, then Block (even on doubles, 10 or 11)
10: Either, then Dodge (take skill instead on dbl-5, or on first 3-4 guys)
11: +AG, then Leap
12: +ST, then Block or Side Step

Big Daddy · Post by **Big Daddy** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 4:57 am

Maybe I should post my starting lineup 1000000gp to start

6 linemen
2 blitzers
2 catchers
1 thrower
3 RR
3FF for free from the commish.

Thanks for the pick-up on the leader skill. I made an assumption that it was general but lo and behold it is a passing skill and one then for the thrower

Thanks again quadrasonic. Those setups make more sense now, with a little background.

Matt - Can you elaborate on your 4 man sidstep idea?

Cheers,
BD

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:52 am

As a Dark Elf coach of many games, and a Wood, Pro, and other Elf coach of much less frequency, I would recommend Dodge first against most leagues, but not a Dwarf or Chaos Dwarf heavy one. In those leagues Wrestle comes first, followed by Fend

I would eventually build toward having Wrestle + Dodge players on the LOS, but don't be afraid to keep your unskilled -AG, -MA, or -AV players on the line... sometimes you can't afford to replace linemen!

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:24 pm

You asked about the 4-Man Side Step Setup of Super Obnoxiousness?

S= Sidestep Lino/Blitzer
C= Catcher
T= Thrower
L= Lino
K= Kicker

Code: Select all

- - - -|- - L L L - -|- - - -
- S C -|K S - - - S T|- C S -

Code: Select all

- - - -|- - L L L - -|- - - -
- S C -|- S - - - S -|- C S -
- - - -|T- - - - - K|- - - -

These set-ups scare some people because being only one back can backfire on a quick snap, but I've won 6-0 with it against a well-played Dwarf team despite giving up two quick snaps, so it's not as vulnerable as it seems as most opponents won't look to capitalize on its QS vulnerability at the expense of whatever offensive structure they would use the other 31 times out of 36. It's much stronger than the deeper set-up that also makes heavy use of Side Step:

Code: Select all

- - - -|- - L L L - -|- - - -
- - - -|- - - - - - -|- - - -
- S C -|K S - - - S T|- C S -

This one is still strong in the WZs, as a blitz will be met with a lateral motion to a spot along the sidelines (standing or prone), but it's a little weaker in the middle, as the wrong casualty on the line can obviate your Side Step guy if he gets knocked down in the blitz, or even eliminate the need for the blitz. Downed down-linos don't choke up the field as much with that extra square of breathing room for the opponent, and in protecting against the QS, your guys are one very critical square back when it comes to pressuring/securing the ball, which will ultimately mean longer drives and more casualties received. Giving up a little depth against a fast opponent isn't huge, as you have a head start and are fairly fast yourself, but getting that extra square of jump on the ball can make the difference between giving up a touchdown and seizing a turnover.

Big Daddy · Post by **Big Daddy** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 6:07 am

Thanks Matt. Those diagrams help to visualise it a bit better. Basically you are saying not to worry too much about the quick snap if setting up this way works out better most of the time.

If you get to use the sidestep ability should you be trying to move forwards and get through their line for a rush on the ball? or use the sidestep to try and keep the line intact?

Thanks,

BD

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Mon Aug 20, 2007 11:57 pm

Big Daddy wrote:If you get to use the sidestep ability should you be trying to move forwards and get through their line for a rush on the ball? or use the sidestep to try and keep the line intact?

That's what Blitzers and Catchers are for. Linos, at MA6, are really there to provide a zone and take up space first; by all means go after the ball with them, but if they spend two turns soaking up the enemy rush, that's why the other guys make the big bux.

Usually, your opponent will pick a strong side and go that way, leaving 3-4 of your guys able to rush the other side. There's absolutely no reason one or two of those couldn't be a line-elf. Given their position in the middle of the field though, they may find themselves forced to play coverage and provide assists.

The D-line itself is a lost cause, and should not under any circumstances be the place where you put any player of any value except the three gys you care least about.

On offense, Side-Step guys usually hold the outside of the cage. Remember, though, that anyone on any elf team can do anything if needed, so don't be afraid to throw to them if they end up open.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Tue Aug 21, 2007 3:32 pm

Oh. Umm... by "cage" I mean "the one or two guys who block for the other guys. Not an orky cage.

Big Daddy · Post by **Big Daddy** » Wed Aug 22, 2007 3:16 am

Thanks Matt.

I have a bit of information to digest for now. I will get some more games under my belt and now I have a bit of confidence about how to go about it.

Thanks to all the other posters too. Some good tips and advice

Big Daddy · Post by **Big Daddy** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:58 am

OK then got through the first league match vs a nurgle team and this is how I'm looking after the 3-0 win. I had some good luck with the opponent struggling to break my armour but working with some of the base set-ups I was given my defence ran pretty well forcing 2 first half turnovers.

Blitzer - Dodge (6spp)
Blitzer - 0 SPP
Catcher - 0 SPP
Catcher - 1 SPP
Thrower - 0SPP
Lineman - 5 SPP
Lineman - 3 SPP
Lineman - 1 SPP
Lineman - 0 SPP
Lineman - 0 SPP
Lineman - 0 SPP

My next two games are Khemri and Dwarf. I'm going to try to get a completion for the lino at 5SPP and then take the kick skill I would think to get the best penetration against the dwarfs in the next round. The khemri team is stacked with the maximum mummy count which should be pretty evil for my LOS guys. I had thought to concentrate on hitting his thro-ras. Is this a good tactic?

Rituro · Post by **Rituro** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:44 am

Big Daddy wrote:I had thought to concentrate on hitting his thro-ras. Is this a good tactic?

Absolutely. Get the thro-ras out of the game and you've crippled his offense. If you can somehow eliminate the blitz-ras, you're laughing.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:11 am

Are you close to being able to pick up a twelfth guy or an Apothecary? If you've got 50k, get the APO. You may need it.

Your ideas sound valid. Once you take the Thro-Ras out, you can probably score every other turn if you're on the ball (so to speak). Don't be afraid to take risks if it leads to TDs, because scoring saves lives. The O-line is for the linos with 1 SPP; the D-line is for linos with none. If you can get a TD with the guy who already has 3, so much the better.

Because you're facing Dwarfs, you'll want to be sure to take a Line-elf with Kick. If a second one gets a normal roll as well, give him Side Step over Dodge. If a Catcher goes up, give him Block. This doesn't necessarily hold in future games; if you weren't worried about Dwarfs, I'd be recommending Dodge.

ClayInfinity · Post by **ClayInfinity** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:36 am

Can I interrupt this discussion to say my Elf team after 15 games absolutely rocks!

Wrestle / Dodge is a great combo for your LOS guys... Wrestle has so many advantages over block when you're on the defensive.

And then yes, they are great at blitzing those surehanded Runner types and bringing them down...

Not up to 3rd skills yet on a line elf, but sidestep and strip ball will be up there on the skill choice list!

Big Daddy · Post by **Big Daddy** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:51 am

I had rubbish rolls for the winnings so the bank is looking pretty sad at 30k. I had hoped to get to 50k to get the apothecary as AV7 vs S5 with mightyblow sounds like a recipe for disaster.

I have games against dwarfs scheduled for rounds 3 and 8. I've already gone dodge on the blitzer who skilled up as there will be 7 regular season games against non-Dwarf teams so I'm trying not to let them having tackle push me too far away from what looks like a solid skill for an AG team. I'm not planning to rely wholly on dodge because of their presence but a couple of guys with dodge can still be useful even against dwarfs. They still have 'slayers and runners that don't have tackle. I just need to work the match-ups for the dodgers.

What are the thoughts about taking block on the next lino to skill up, after the kicker? I'm thinking block will help keep him alive longer to then look at side-step on the next skill up eg a mini-blitzer. Giving him block will cut the likelihood of a knockdown when blocked (single dice) to 1/3rd. Side-step is good but you can go down 50% of the time when blocked (single dice) depending on the blocker.

*edit*

Thanks for the input Clay. No need to apologise just butt right in I need all the help I can get

I plan to try and build 2 wrestle/dodgers out of my linemen but I figured they will come further down the priority list.

I'm thinking for first skill up on each lino in priority (allowing for no stats, casualties or doubles)

kick
block
block
dodge
dodge
dirty player

thoughts...

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:54 pm

On the LOS, Block isn't actually much help. If your opponent opens the block chain up on your end with his center, he'll happily leave your guy in place to be blocked by the next guy if he has to. If your opponent doesn't have Block, then Block only saves you from going down 1/12 the time, and when that does happen it ends his turn anyway (so it's really more like 1/108 if he has a re-roll). However Side Step on an end completely shuts down chain-blocks (I wouldn't put that on an end either, 'cause the line is for schmoes -- the thing to remember is your linemen develop like linebackers because they become linebackers as soon as they're too valuable to waste).

Block is good against Dwarfs or Norse, and it's good for making guys you'd blitz with more reliable. I'm not saying don't take it, but I don't think you'll be happy with it for defensive use on a Pro Elf lineman. Wrestle is definitely better, but even then (except against Dwarfs) it takes a backseat to Dodge.

Even against Dwarfs, Blitzers with Dodge are great. Since Blitzers are your cornerbacks anyway and stick way out on the sides, for the Dwarf team to move a Tackle player next to him commits that player to that spot, even as your Blitzer (probably) slips out of his grasp on a 2+ anyway. This is because all those Tackle guys are also MA4. Use it to make him commit to bad set-up, or just ignore it.

In a league based on 3rd or 4th edition, Dirty Player should be your second skill selection, right after Kick (not on the same guy!). In 5th edition, you should avoid it entirely: fouling is weak, Dirty Player is weak, your AV7 makes ejections a problem, and your linos aren't cheap enough. Besides, you want to be thinking about the ball: thinking about the other team is for Dwarfs and Khemri.

Big Daddy · Post by **Big Daddy** » Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:32 am

You make a good point there Matt but sometimes...you just wanna stomp some face regardless of the effectiveness

With the match up after the Khemri team being dwarfs I think I will take wrestle if another lino skills up after the kicker.

Also you mention lkinebackers a bit. I don't really follow American football so can you elaborate on this. I'm guessing they are guys back off the line who plug gaps in the defence...?