Fixing Vampires in house league

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 12:49 am

I've brought this up before in other topics, but I want to see what you all think on it, so here it is in its own topic:

I'm certainly not the only one here who hates Blood Lust. I have a few ideas I've kicked around on rewriting Vampires to be playable. They're really quite hard to balance.

My idea for the basis for any anti-skills is that Vampires hate to practice. They're too good for that stuff: they just go out there and kill things, and then when the game's over they're too sexy for their jerseys. Practice is for Thralls, for all the good it'll do them as their masters don't know or care what they're up to.

The centerpiece of my idea is to have a penalty for trying to field more than a couple of Vamps, which is in effect what Blood Lust is when you strip the unbelievable obnoxiousness away. I was thinking about a negatrait that I'm calling Egomaniac. The player with Egomaniac is sure the world revolves around him: he does what he pleases, and if he's going along with anyone else's plan it's cause he's got a prominent place in it. Whenever the player is set up on the pitch, roll 1d6. If the number is greater than the number of players on the pitch (including this one), then he may be set up normally (you can move him around on the pitch prior to finishing your set-up, but if you take him off, you have to roll again to put him back on). If not, he doesn't feel like playing and spends the drive in the Reserves bin. Effectively, you get 5/6 of the first Vamp, a little better than 2/3 of a Vamp for the second (for a total of a bit over 1.5), and about half a Vamp each for the next two. It's actually a little better than that, as you get to choose which Vamps get the best odds and they can replace each other if injured, but that's basically how it works out. Also, an Apoth is available but is either/or with Regen.

If that's not enough, then the following additional nerfs are a possibility:

1) Vamps don't train together, so they get Loner.
2) Vamps don't train at all, so their access is AS/GP.
3) 10-20k price increase.

stashman · Post by **stashman** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 1:14 pm

have anyone tested Vampires just be giving them Loner. That would be a big diffrence to use them, but not giving them access to Generals skills is too nerfed.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 2:38 pm

Loner by itself is categorically not enough. You have to charge more than you can with a player like that, so he needs to come with "additional charges" like dead players or something. I'm hoping that needing to buy benchwarmers will do the same thing.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:46 pm

SO as an example...

My Transylvanian Transvestites team has 4 vampires on it

1) Hillary Clinton- Vamp with Pro, Block, Dodge, and Mighty Blow
2) Betty Ford- Vamp with Block, Tackle, and Guard
3) Nancy Reagan- Vamp with Block
4) Barbara Bush- Vamp with Dodge

Ok, so I want to put Hillary on the pitch, and I roll a d6. If I roll a 1, she refuses to play? On a roll of a 2+, she is fielded as normal?

Assuming that's right, next I want to field Betty, so I need to roll a further d6. If I roll a 1 or 2, she isn't fielded at all. On a 3+, she is set up as normal. This continues until all my vamps are fielded or in the reserves, or until I no longer want to field any more vamps. It also means I can never field more than 5 vamps (as the 6th would need to roll a 7+.)

That makes sense, but what happens if I start the half off by setting up 5 thralls. Does this mean that it is impossible to set up a vamp (because the vamp is going to be the 6th player on the pitch...) Or do only egomaniac players count? I assume only egomaniacs count.

Let's say I just roll horribly and get all 1's. In this case, I can (AND MUST) still set up 11 players (all Thralls, presumably)

Finally, let's say I have set up my 11 players, and all 4 vamps are on the pitch. However, I note that Hillary is in the wrong square! In order to move her, do I need to roll a 5+?

Is that the gist of your new rule?

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:03 pm

Jural wrote:SO as an example...

My Transylvanian Transvestites team has 4 vampires on it

1) Hillary Clinton- Vamp with Pro, Block, Dodge, and Mighty Blow
2) Betty Ford- Vamp with Block, Tackle, and Guard
3) Nancy Reagan- Vamp with Block
4) Barbara Bush- Vamp with Dodge

Cool.

Ok, so I want to put Hillary on the pitch, and I roll a d6. If I roll a 1, she refuses to play? On a roll of a 2+, she is fielded as normal?

Yes.

Assuming that's right, next I want to field Betty, so I need to roll a further d6. If I roll a 1 or 2, she isn't fielded at all. On a 3+, she is set up as normal. This continues until all my vamps are fielded or in the reserves, or until I no longer want to field any more vamps. It also means I can never field more than 5 vamps (as the 6th would need to roll a 7+.)

If Hillary doesn't show, the field is still empty. Betty shows on a 2+. If Hillary does show, Betty needs a 3. If neither Hillary nor Betty shows, then Nancy or Barbara (your choice) needs a 2, so with all four your odds of getting at least one are better than 99.9%. You can never field more than 5 as written (though I could make a "rule of 6" exception), but having the 6th improves your odds of getting 4 or 5 on the field, esp. once you take a cas/KO.

That makes sense, but what happens if I start the half off by setting up 5 thralls. Does this mean that it is impossible to set up a vamp (because the vamp is going to be the 6th player on the pitch...) Or do only egomaniac players count? I assume only egomaniacs count.

Everybody counts. You just wouldn't ever set any Thralls up until the Vamps are all either on the pitch or not coming.

Let's say I just roll horribly and get all 1's. In this case, I can (AND MUST) still set up 11 players (all Thralls, presumably)

If you get all 1s, then you must set up all your non-Egomaniac players (Read: Thralls), up to 11. If you get all 1s and don't have 3 Thralls, that's your problem.

Finally, let's say I have set up my 11 players, and all 4 vamps are on the pitch. However, I note that Hillary is in the wrong square! In order to move her, do I need to roll a 5+?

Nope. She's on the pitch, directing traffic, getting into position. She can start at linebacker then move to safety, for instance, if you want her to, as long as [EDIT: ]you haven't set your final formation at kick-off. Once she's there, she can be moved around as you like. You would only have to roll again for Hillary if she goes off the field and comes back on (like say you realize you should have rolled for Betty first, after you've already rolled for Hillary: you can put Hillary back in reserves so Betty gets to come in on 2+, then you roll again for Hil, probably at 3+).

stashman · Post by **stashman** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:19 pm

Seems complicated and a bit of LRB5 rulings.

1) Vamps don't train together, so they get Loner.
- Seems fair. The vamps can still get skills as reolls, like dodge, sure feet, etc.

2) Vamps don't train at all, so their access is AS/GP.
- A bit to hard on them when the have the Loner skill. GAS/P makes more seens.

3) 10-20k price increase.
- With Loner i think 110K is an ok price.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Thu Sep 27, 2007 11:19 pm

Oh, I'd only do one of those three. You think Loner is the best option then?

stashman · Post by **stashman** » Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:45 am

Yes Loner will probably do best for them, fits fluffwise too.

Loner (Extraordinary)
Loners, through inexperience, arrogance, animal ferocity or just plain stupidity, do not work well with the rest of the team.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:08 am

Can Hypnotic Gaze be made a Mutation if a) it's an unmodified 4+ and b) it constitutes its own special action, limited like all special actions to one use per team turn?

Wosret · Post by **Wosret** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:11 pm

stashman wrote:Loner (Extraordinary)
Loners, through inexperience, arrogance, animal ferocity or just plain stupidity, do not work well with the rest of the team.

Well on this quote all Elves should add loner to their list too

fen · Post by **fen** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:36 pm

Arrogance was added to cover Star Players and my having loner.
Maybe High and Dark Elves should get it as well...

Rituro · Post by **Rituro** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:53 pm

The difference with elves is that their brand of arrogance can be overcome with gobs and gobs of cash.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:16 pm

Besides, elves are too sexy for YOU, not for each other. Elves don't think elves are arrogant (except for Dark Elves, and arrogance gets them hot).

Rituro · Post by **Rituro** » Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:37 pm

mattgslater wrote:Elves don't think elves are arrogant (except for Dark Elves, and arrogance gets them hot).

bigallium · Post by **bigallium** » Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:01 am

interesting oringinal idea.

I would give them 'Animosity' as well as Loner (as in the Chaos Pact team - everytime a player atttempts a pass or hand-off, roll a D6. On a 1 they refuse to complete the action and must take a move action instead)

Also, if you can move th evamps around after you've placed them on the pitch, then you never need place a Thrall on the pitch before a Vamp anyway so I would just lose that bit and just make the rolls regardless.