Stab and Injury rolls

[Jural]

As if it needs it, I also have always interpreted this ruling as Stunty and Nigglers applying, and think it needs to be made official going forward.

This is one of those odd rules areas where intuition and intention do not always mesh, I see it as a similar issue to the intercept before the pass roll.

I hope my intepretation is solidified at some point, either in a FAQ, or with a slight re-wording of the Stab skill. If space permits for neither, I suppose it will remain ambiguous, and most leagues will simply do it intuitively (the stunty and Nigglers modifiers apply.)

[Snew]

It may but the FAQ would read something like- NO! Really. Stunty and Niggle adjustments DON'T apply to Stab. No modifiers really means NO MODIFIERS. What don't you understand about that?!?

That was the intention fo the rule. I doubt it's going to change because every reads is differently. If anything the wording might change to make it even less ambiguous which it really isn't now. Everyone just assumes that Stunty and Niggles are so bad they override everything.

[Darkson]

Then as has been posted above, what exactly do stakes do?

Stab (Extraordinary)
A player with this skill is armed with something very good at stabbing, slashing or hacking up an opponent, like sharp fangs or a trusty dagger. This player may attack an opponent with their stabbing attack instead of throwing a block at them. Make an unmodified Armour roll for the victim. If the score is less than or equal to the victim’s Armour value then the attack has no effect. If the score beats the victim’s Armour value then they have been wounded and an unmodified Injury roll must be made. If Stab is used as part of a Blitz Action, the player cannot continue moving after using it. Casualties caused by a stabbing attack do not count for Star Player points.

Stakes (Extraordinary)
This player is armed with special stakes that are blessed to cause extra damage to the Undead and those that work with them. This player may add 1 to the Armour roll when they make a Stab attack against any player playing for a Khemri, Necromantic, Undead or Vampire team.

If the injury is unmodified, which means stunty

In addition, add 1 to any Injury roll made against a player with the Stunty skill.

or niggles

Each Niggling Injury adds 1 to any subsequent Injury roll made against this player.

, then the AV roll is similarly unmodified, which means Stakes have no additional efect, and can be removed from the skill list.

[fen]

Stakes are stupid anyway. How are they more likely to cause damage to a skeleton than a human?

Just ditch the pointless skill and let Zara stab things as she likes. With spoons.

[Darkson]

That's not the point - the point is, how can one "unmodified" roll be modified by one skill (AV by stakes), but another not (Inj by stunty/niggle).
Either Tom (and Snew) have got the ruling wrong, the intention wrong, or the Stake skill is wrong.

Personally, whatever the "official" answer is, I'll always play it as Stakes, niggles and Stunty affect the specific roll.

[Xeterog]

stakes is a specific exception to the normal Stab Rules. It says you get to add one to the AV when stabbing undead types.

Neither Niggle nor Stunty have a specific exception, so you go with the normal rule for stab (unmodified)

Much like Frenzy--normally you cqn choose not to use a skill, but frenzy specifically overides that.

[GalakStarscraper]

That's not the point - the point is, how can one "unmodified" roll be modified by one skill (AV by stakes), but another not (Inj by stunty/niggle).
Either Tom (and Snew) have got the ruling wrong, the intention wrong, or the Stake skill is wrong.

Funny ... don't the rules say you cannot re-roll AV ... guess Piling On doesn't work either.

Stakes says an unmodified roll ... that was meant to specifically address Mighty Blow, Claw, Stunty, and Niggles ... I'm sorry that you guys disagree.

Stakes SPECIFICALLY addresses Stab.

In 6.0 we can but a line in Stab to make it clear that Stunty and Niggles are injury modifiers and really are meant by that text.

Ask yourself this guys ... why the heck do you think it says "unmodified injury"? If you say for MB ... then why are Stunty and Niggles any different?

The intent with Stab was definitely not to allow easy CAS vs Flings and Snots. The +1 injury would just be gratious to a skill that already works amazingly well against them.

Galak

Personally, whatever the "official" answer is, I'll always play it as Stakes, niggles and Stunty affect the specific roll.

As it should always be with a league commish.

[slup]

Funny ... don't the rules say you cannot re-roll AV ... guess Piling On doesn't work either.

No, the rules only say that you cannot use a team reroll or pro to reroll them.

To save fling and gobbos by modifing stab is like spitting in the desert to make it wet. Most coaches doesn't play those team and those that do have acceptet the hurting anyway.
The real impact is against niggling injuries and skinks, both of which appear a lot more often.
One of the goals of LRB5 was to make people retire players with injuries, hence the non-compensation of team value, stab only furthers this goal.
And if lizardmen can protect their skinks from dwarves (who could hurt them a lot more), then they can protect them from assassins.

The reason i (and i guess most others) object is that it is not the intuitive way, using the same logic on could argue that 'any' from nig and stunty overrides 'unmodified' in stab.

And that you cannot have 'unmodified' mean one thing here and another there.

[Darkson]

So, explain again, cos I must be getting thick in my old age.
Why is is an unmodified AV roll can be modified by a skill (Stakes), but an unmodified Inj roll can't be modified by Stunty/niggle?
If the intention is that Stake do work on Stab, then either the rules need clarifiying, or the same intention is that niggs/stunty work on the injury.

Differnet arguement, but when I roll an Injury roll on an opponent, I only add the skills my players prosesses, the opponent adds any relevent "skills" (stunty/niggle).

[GalakStarscraper]

Why is is an unmodified AV roll can be modified by a skill (Stakes), but an unmodified Inj roll can't be modified by Stunty/niggle?

Because Stakes SPECIFICIALLY mentions that it modifies Stab.

Galak

[Darkson]

So? Stab SPECIFICALLY mentions Unmodified. Nowhere does it say "except for Stakes".
And Stunty/Niggle SPECIFICALLY mention ANY injury roll. Nowhere does it specify "except for Stab injuries".

So at the moment, "unmodified" means 2 completely different things in the space of two sentences.

[GalakStarscraper]

And that you cannot have 'unmodified' mean one thing here and another there.

WTF ... unmodified ONLY appears 3 times in whole dang rulebook. HOW does it mean one thing here and another there.

Unmodified means normal modifiers DO NOT WORK. Stakes SPECIFICALLY states that it overrides this rule and gives a bonus by directly referring to the Stab skill.

You guys can scream at me all you want ... but looking precisely at the wording in the rulebook I don't agree with where you are coming from with your readings.

Dodge allows you to re-roll to get away from folks ... there is no mention of Tackle in the Dodge skill ... however the Tackle skill specifically states that when its in play the rules of Dodge don't work. Stakes is no different here by directly referencing Stab it overrides the rules. The game IS FILLED with overrides and skills cancelling skills ... so it is with some amazement that me that you all have issues with this one.

Galak

[Darkson]

Except unmodifed means exactly that, unmodifed. Dodge doesn't say you can always reroll to get away from people - if it did then Tackle wouldn't work.
So how is a reader without any inclination into the intention of the wording meant to know that unmodified means unmodified, unless it's modified elsewhere?

WTF ... unmodified ONLY appears 3 times in whole dang rulebook. HOW does it mean one thing here and another there.

Well, let's list it's 3 uses.

1. In Safe Throw, for an unmodified AG roll.
2. In Stab, for an unmodified Inj roll.
3. In Stab, for an unmodified AV roll.

All 3 use the same wording - "an unmodified x roll". But your saying the +1 from Stakes DOES modifiy the 3rd useage, which is different from 1 and 2, which are exactly as they say on the tin, unmodified. So from your own post, unmodified means 2 different things within 1 skill description. One mean unmodified (and no exceptions), the other means unmodified (with an exception).

[GalakStarscraper]

Except unmodifed means exactly that, unmodifed. Dodge doesn't say you can always reroll to get away from people - if it did then Tackle wouldn't work.
So how is a reader without any inclination into the intention of the wording meant to know that unmodified means unmodified, unless it's modified elsewhere?

HAVE I ARGUED THAT IT WAS PERFECTLY CLEAR ... NO!

Look I tried to get out of this argument because I AGREE that it needs improvement to the wording. You asked me to please rejoin the thread. I did ... and I'm still sticking by my statement that the rules as written in book do not allow the Stunty and Niggling modifiers to work. I also have said that in LRB 6.0 if this is a big deal we'll make that more clear by specifically saying "an unmodified injury roll (Stunty and Niggling modifiers are ignored as well)" in the Stab rule text.

Galak

[Darkson]

[Written whilst Galak was posting his response above.]

but looking precisely at the wording in the rulebook I don't agree with where you are coming from with your readings.

I asked a mate (occansional BB player, mostly 40K and WFB, where the rules are badly written and full of exceptions) to read the Niggle, Stunty, Stab and Stakes sections. His view was:
a) That none of the "skills" worked, that unmodified meant exactly that.
b) if that wasn't the intention, in that stakes should give a bonus to stab against Undead, then from the wording, stunty and niggle also worked.

Galak, you're saying neither of these views are "correct", yet that's the reading a game player that's played GW games since Rogue Traders views, and one that's seen plenty of badly worded rules.