Stab and Injury rolls

[Jural]

We've come a long way from when we needed the Oberwald. You could do a LOT worse than reading the literal translation and believing that.

And unlike other GW games, we arrived at where we are even with a pretty high degree of complication, as opposed to Warhammer 40K and such games, which have fairly straightforward intepretations of most rules(well, kinda) because they took all of the complication out of the rules.

It's one of the reasons I don't understand people who pine for LRB 1 or 2 or earlier... The game was in many ways the same, but written in such a way as that rules lawyers had field days...

[Darkson]

You could do a LOT worse than reading the literal translation and believing that.

One of the things I like about Snew's new BB approach and outlook. If the text doesn't say what I think it says ... he calls me on it ... which is great. The text should say the exact rules and implications and intentions be d*mned.

Galak

Ok, that's fine.

Then from a literal translation, Stakes is wasted when Stabbing an Undead player, at least until LRB6.



And I still think that not taking stunty/niggles into account is stupid.

[Snew]

No. Stakes says it give a +1 to AV vs Undead. You're trying t omake it into a Catch 22 and it's not.

[GalakStarscraper]

Then from a literal translation, Stakes is wasted when Stabbing an Undead player, at least until LRB6.

Again ... since Stakes specifically references Stab ... I'll kindly suggest that you are wrong and flogging this poor horse at the same time.

And I still think that not taking stunty/niggles into account is stupid.

Okay in all seriousness WHY?

If I stab a Goblin ... why is that going to kill him better than stabbing a human being? I'm not sure I honestly understand why being Stunty would make a knife wound worse.

And niggles ... give me a break ... really ... Simon ... HOW can you suggest that because I have a bad back but continue to play that a knife wound is going to do more damage to me than to another person ... I would argue in fact if you are going to throw the word 'stupid' at me ... that it is in fact not my suggestion for how the rule should work that lacks the basis in intelligence. The intent for having Stab rolls be unmodified was two fold ... 1) We felt like it allowed too easy of an attack vs Stunties in terms of game effect. Really do you need +1 to injury on an attack against a Halfling who is already AV 6 for your Stab roll????? So in game effect terms this rule makes sense. 2) We felt like you cannot really argue that Niggles and Stunty makes a player more likely to die from a Stab attack vs a player without these items. So for this reason as well it was unmodified.

Galak

[Darkson]

HOW can you suggest that because I have a bad back but continue to play that a knife wound is going to do more damage to me than to another person ...

The same why that you suggest that punching (blocking) someone with a bad back is more likely to do more damage than someone without a bad back.
Or me having a bad back is more likely to kill me from a punch (block) than someon without a bad back.

And Stuntys are more suspectible in injurys - a stab wound is an injury. Therefore, they're more likely to be hurt from a stab than a regualr guy (put it in a Real Life wording, stuntys are smaller than an average humnaiod, so a 6 inch knife wound is more likely to damage a vital organ than against a regular-sized person).

[Darkson]

Then from a literal translation, Stakes is wasted when Stabbing an Undead player, at least until LRB6.

Again ... since Stakes specifically references Stab ... I'll kindly suggest that you are wrong and flogging this poor horse at the same time.

A LITERAL reading, something you've commended Snew on, says it's an unmodified roll.

Let's define "unmodified" - from wordnet - (adj) unmodified (not changed in form or character)

Now, I don't care what other skills say, Stab says that the AV roll is "unmodified", so that's exactly what it is. I roll a 8, it's an 8. If it becomes a 9, then it is no longer "unmodified".

[GalakStarscraper]

The same why that you suggest that punching (blocking) someone with a bad back is more likely to do more damage than someone without a bad back.
Or me having a bad back is more likely to kill me from a punch (block) than someon without a bad back.

I would suggest that both of these statements are true. Which means you and will need to agree to disagree.

Galak

[GalakStarscraper]

Then from a literal translation, Stakes is wasted when Stabbing an Undead player, at least until LRB6.

Again ... since Stakes specifically references Stab ... I'll kindly suggest that you are wrong and flogging this poor horse at the same time.

A LITERAL reading, something you've commended Snew on, says it's an unmodified roll.

Let's define "unmodified" - from wordnet - (adj) unmodified (not changed in form or character)

Now, I don't care what other skills say, Stab says that the AV roll is "unmodified", so that's exactly what it is. I roll a 8, it's an 8. If it becomes a 9, then it is no longer "unmodified".

And with that ... its clear you have your mind set on how you view this .... so I'll agree that we disagree.

Galak

[Darkson]

Ok, so why is having a smashed knee more likely to get me killed from a punch?
Or are you saying that BB players are so inteligent that if they know you have a dodgy knee, then that's where they punch you?



And your arguement against stab working on stuntys?

[Darkson]

so I'll agree that we disagree.

Hold on - you just trumpeted the merits and value of literal reading.
I present a literal reading, and even get a dictionary definetioon that backs up my literal reading.

And now you're just saying we'll agree to disagree?

So a literal reading is exactly want we want, as long as it doesn't contradict the intention of the rules?

[GalakStarscraper]

Okay fine DS ... look I GREATLY disagree with your trying to suggest that since Stab says Unmodified that when Stakes says it adds +1 to Stab that the unmodified trumps a direct skill reference in Stakes.

I find that argument in all honestly completely insane. And if all we are going to do is argue is the point of Stab compared to Stakes ... I seriously doubt many would agree with you on this. The direct reference triumps in my opinion. That is me literally reading the skills. Certain skills directly effect other skills. Like Grab interfering with the normal workings of Side Step ... Stakes by directly referencing Stab is clearly interfereing with the normal workings of that Stab and as such works. This is my LITERAL opinion of the text. Not my gut feeling, not my this is how it is supposed to work ... that is my LITERAL reading of the text.

====

And on the Stab vs Stunty argument ... I already stated that the reasoning was TWO-fold (not single-fold). So even if we want to argue that a knife would have a better chance of hitting a vital organ in a Stunty .... I will go back to the first reason I posted which is that as a Game Effect ... Stab is too good against Stunties if they +1 injury modifier works with it. So in the interest of game balance ... it would not ... it should not ... and a literal reading of the rules says it does not.

====

And yes ... I am arguing a bone crushing hit that knocks you down swiftly into a harden turf is most definitely without question in my viewpoint MUCH more likely to trigger the compounding effect of any Niggling injury than a knife stab that you most likely slide off of onto the pitch would. The aftereffects of a tackle vs a stab for impact with the ground are night and day ... and I really cannot believe you are trying to argue otherwise because I consider you a very intelligent man.

Galak

[Darkson]

Okay fine DS ... look I GREATLY disagree with your trying to suggest that since Stab says Unmodified that when Stakes says it adds +1 to Stab that the unmodified trumps a direct skill reference in Stakes.

Then as I said, it's not unmodified. And if it's not unmodified in one sentence, how can it be unmodified in another? Just saying because it directly states it in another skill is, imo, a poor arguement. I'd counter argue that because both stunty and niggle say "all injuries", then using your own arguement, that trumps "unmodified" as well.
You can't have thew word "unmodifed" mean different things in the same skill, that's insane.



And I believe the point of the PBBL is to make coaches retire players with niggles? A Blodging, Fend Wardancer with a niggle - what else are they scared of.

[GalakStarscraper]

Simon ... I'm not going to argue this one with you ... I like you too much to go back and forth on this one.

I respect your opinion ... I respectfully disagree with it ... and I'm sure if it goes into LRB 6.0 it will be one more thing that I've done to make you like 4.0 better. I don't go out of my way to make you make house rules ... but I'm really not seeing the point in making Stab better than it already is. Its a pretty darn good skill and used right (as I've seen it done) ... it can be d*mn terrifying and strategy altering. I just see no reason at all to make it even better and some uber weapon vs stunties ... wasn't the whole point of the Right Stuff stopping Tackle debate because we wanted to stop the wholesale slaughter of Stunties in unbalanced ways ... so I'm not inclined to change a rule to go the other way.

And again ... I don't agree with your arguments on Stab's wording. I respectfully disagree. I hear your argument ... I just don't agree with it past the point of saying ... yes its grey ... and that needs addressed in 6.0 and in fact I put it on the list for that for 6.0.

Galak

[Rustycan]

So for LRB 6.0, this will finally be put to rest? This topic really got peoples dander up!! I am sure there are many more skills and things that we can dig deep and find many many discrepancies or wording we can use to our advantage. Try to use common sense here guys, thats my 2cents.

[Darkson]

Try to use common sense here guys, thats my 2cents.

I was using common sense.