Stand Firm

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Sat Oct 13, 2007 3:25 pm

I agree with the designers of the 4th and 5th eds that Stand Firm in 3rd needed to be nerfed. I think, however, that the nerfing was overdone: my balance aesthetic says it should seem to be a relative equal to Side Step, so long as it doesn't become a "no-brainer" skill (which would be hard in a category with Guard, Mighty Blow and Juggernaut).

Two questions for y'all:

1) Do you agree with the assessment below? If not, where am I wrong? Does Stand firm need to be fixed?

2) If you agree, do you like any of the "fixes" I present, or should something else be done?

Part I: The Stand Firm Situation
- In 3rd ed., Stand Firm got a lot of use as intended, and the two benefits (ending action instead of falling down on a failed dodge, and never getting pushed) were fun in conjunction on Blockers and (when they came along) rookie Big Guys. It was kind of powerful and maybe needed to be looked at on those grounds alone, but the real problem was its outrageous power as a doubles roll on a player with Dodge and/or AG4.

- After a little clumsy playing around with the Turnover rule way back when, Stand Firm was turned into a Trait, solving that Agility player problem, and keeping the power of the skill in check via rarity. As un-fun as Traits were, this one seemed to work pretty well.

- In the current rules, with Traits (thankfully) gone, something had to be done. The problem of Stand Firm's power was solved in one fell swoop by simply lopping off the lesser benefit. Chop. Now it just keeps you from getting pushed. To make sure the right nerf had been taken, a secondary nerf was included: when new skills were developed to beef up S (because now that's all Big Guys got!) they added counters in to Stand Firm and Side Step. This was kind of warranted in Side Step's case: it's a clear top-tier skill, even if it's got sharp competition in its category.

- It just so happened that the skill that counters Stand Firm got way more popular than the one that counters Side Step. Worse, the "stay where you are" benefit really isn't quite as good as the "pick where you get pushed" benefit most of the time (which is why the second bennie was there to begin with in 3rd). Now, nobody would take it on doubles.

Part II: The Stand Firm Solutions

Which, if either, do you like?

A) When a player with Stand Firm fails a dodge attempt, unless the roll is a 1 (before modifiers), the player stumbles into his new square, remaining on his feet, but his action ends immediately. If a 1 is rolled, the player is knocked down as normal. (The idea is that the "stumble" power would be totally useable but still kind of risky on a bruiser, all-but useless on an AG4 player, and half value for an AG3 player.)

B) When a player with Stand Firm attempts to dodge, all die rolls of 5 or 6 (before modifiers) are automatic successes.(This is much weaker than A, but will be a cute side-bennie sometimes on bashers if the dodge is very important and a TRR is available.)

Neither benefit synergizes well with Break Tackle, which is unfortunate: one thing the old SF had going for it that I liked was how many skills it worked with and how many ways one could go with it. Hmmmm.... I'll keep thinking on it.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 7:27 am

random note 1: I liked traits, actually.

Aside from that, I do agree Stand Firm as it was before was more fun. It made dodging with your big guys a potential tactic, but at the cost of a (usually) better skill (block, or Dodge, or Pro, or a mutation...)

Now, it would be great to have that fun aspect back, the problem is, that niche is basically already filled with Break Tackle, to a large degree.

That was the great thing about the trait system, you could add on fairly powerful abilities (as long as they weren't game changing) and you didn't need to worry about teams full of the skill, or the skill ending up in the wrong hands (elves!)

Ok... your solutions.

The second choice just isn't enough. Almost all players already succeed on a 5 or a 6 (even mummies!) Sure it allows mummies dodging into tackle zones to be successful, and it allows ogres dodging into two tackle zones to be successful, but in every way it is a weaker version of Break Tackle. There is no need for this, in my mind.

The second choice is intruiging, as it doesn't effect elves dodging at all (unless there are tackle zones involved.) It also is basically the previous edition Stand Firm, with a chance of turnover. This mirrors Jump Up very well. I like this idea.

The other idea I like:

A player with Stand Firm who fails a Dodge roll must immediately stop moving but is placed in the target square (just like LRB 4.) The roll to Dodge may never be re-rolled, therefore players with Stand Firm can never take Dodge, and players with Dodge can never choose Stand Firm.

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 10:15 am

I think that stand firm is pretty good as is.
On ST4, on blodgers and on guard players it is very useful. IMO.

Jural · Post by **Jural** » Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:16 am

plasmoid wrote:I think that stand firm is pretty good as is.
On ST4, on blodgers and on guard players it is very useful. IMO.

It is still a good skill now, but it isn't as fun as it used to be. IMO also.

Does that mean it needs to be changed? Not really. But it's worth considering. For this same reason, I think it would be fun to re-visit mutations.

mattgslater · Post by **mattgslater** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:11 am

I agree that Stand Firm is in the pack of usable 2nd-4th selections as-is, but I think a) it's clearly inferior to the most similar skill (Side Step), and b) the balance of the game can totally handle a small improvement to it, so long as it's not as good as the old SF.

plasmoid · Post by **plasmoid** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:46 am

Well,
my blodge guard skaven blitzer on my creepers team will definately take stand firm next.
And the troll will take it too, after tentacles.

IMO, there are skills more in need of tweaking than this.

But - as a house rule, I agree, there is room for improvement before the skill breaks. So knock yourself out

Cheers
Martin

MadLordAnarchy · Post by **MadLordAnarchy** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:26 am

Stand Firm is a solid skill.

I really hated the free dodging aspect and chucked it out of my league. BB should be about risk. Anything that reduces the scope of turnover is a bad thing.

PubBowler · Post by **PubBowler** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:51 am

mattgslater wrote: a) it's clearly inferior to the most similar skill (Side Step),

Disagree: I don't think there's anything clear about it.

With Stand Firm they have to use their Blitz (With Juggernaut) thus limiting it to one a turn.

Side Step can be Grab affected by as many blocks as you care to throw.

Not to mention that is is possible for a non-Grab player to push a Side Step player off the pitch when it is impossible for a non-Juggernaut player to do the same for a Stand Firm player.

It comes down to:

Player (I'd take Side Step over Stand Firm on a player with Frenzy for example).

TV (20k vs 30k might not seem a lot but if they both work it might be all there is).

Other skill choices available (some times those doubles are golden)

Other teams in your league (Grab heavy pushes you towards Stand Firm).

Your team (style, content etc)

The same things that affect every skill choice in fact...

Joemanji · Post by **Joemanji** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:26 pm

As such Stand Firm is a very solid and worthwhile skill. In terms of power it is exactly where it should be, and any added bonus is going to make it too good IMO.

However, if you want to add the fun back in, Break Tackle pretty much does the exact same job of allowing your big strong guys to dodge about. Every roll should have some chance of failure (that is the essence of BB), so I think BT covers the bases well enough.