Make the humans a good Team. Change the Catcher.

[stormmaster1]

i disagree that ST2 doesn't make sense fluffwise. I always thought it odd that other catchers would be ST3. Catchers to me were supposed to be weak, but fast.

[Pakulkan]

Ok, guys, this is a extensive argue in spanish forum so, I want to ask you, coaches that say "ok, humans are fine right now":

How many matches you play with human team?

Cause I found that the largest amount of people that say that, never play humans, so it's so easy to say things like that if you don't test the team.

How many human teams are in leagues/tourneys?

So, if it is really the well-ballanced team, what's the reason because rookie players do not start with that team? Or well experienced coaches don't choose this "good team" to play the tourneys?

It's only for the human history? they don't like the Imperium? Humans smell bad?

The problem is the human catcher. With this guys the team becomes weaker than ELF teams as Dark elves, and is abrogated to do all their rolls at 3+. So, the real power of the human team is MO+Block. So, you need catchers with ST3 to resist enemies blockings. All the teams with chances to do pass play have better catchers than humans, for example as Gutter Runner (and this skaven team have 2 blitzer equal than humans and a better Big Guy!!) only for 10.000 Mo more.

If the catcher's price is arround 90.000 you cannot give all the positionals at the beginning of the league, so, there's no overpowered team. There are lots of teams that becomes so powerful when the play offs arrive, like dark elves, orcs... and other teams starts overpowered and become so weak when the league avance like norse or undead.

But humans have a very hard beginning with lineman that cannot do anithing, very weak catchers that die one time and again and 4 strong blitzers that cannot play alone against anyone.

At the end of the league, if you're very lucky, maybe you have competent catchers, when your oponent's have extremly overpowered catchers, oneturners and something like that.

So, I don't think so that human team will have players with AG4, cause they're the "well ballanced team". For the same reason, I think that they need all players with ST3 and AG3, that makes it a real "well ballanced team". Then, you really can take the human team as a basic BB team.

0-4 Blitzers Block 90.000
0-2 Catchers Dodge, Catch 90.000
0-2 Throwers Sure Hands, Pass 70.000
0-16 Linemen 50.000
0-1 Ogre

Then you have couple of possibilities to perform your team, not the typical 4 Blitzers, 1 Ogre, 1 thrower and don't care the others.

[stormmaster1]

problem i find is that ST3 catchers become great blitzers.

[Bucket-Head]

problem i find is that ST3 catchers become great blitzers.

Without strength skills and 7 armour.

But this is a difficult matter...

[Glorian Underhill]

How many human teams are in leagues/tourneys?

So, if it is really the well-ballanced team, what's the reason because rookie players do not start with that team? Or well experienced coaches don't choose this "good team" to play the tourneys?

Now someone says what I'm talking about! Sure they are ballanced, but hey aren't good. In the common Tournament scene they play a non existing role. And at Team Tournaments they are a no go race. I know that England in the Eurobowl 2004 took one under David Candlish (hope it was right spelled) and Longshot took them in 2006 for France. They are both exceptional players but their Results in that tournaments where medicore. And after that they didn't go to the top with that team either.

So if i'm playing with 4 Blitzers, 1 Thrower and the Rest Lineman I take Dark elves. 1 Reroll less but everyone can Dodge.


-An ST 3 Catcher is not a better Blitzer than a High Elf or Pro Elf Catcher. And in Both Teams the coaches prefer their Blitzer first before a Blitzing Catcher.

[Darkson]

You're talking about changing a race based on tourney feedback, which is not the correct way of looking at it. Based on the MBBL results, the humans are fine (55.53% w/l).

Maybe they're not a great tourney team, but tourneys are not what the rules are there for.

[Pakulkan]

You're talking about changing a race based on tourney feedback, which is not the correct way of looking at it. Based on the MBBL results, the humans are fine (55.53% w/l).

Maybe they're not a great tourney team, but tourneys are not what the rules are there for.

AND in leagues. How many guys in your league have been played humans last 5 years? And someone else race?

[Old Man Draco]

We have one who is playing in our league and is really good except against my orcs. (I blame that om my dice )

At TV 200 Humans are a real threat to any team.

[PubBowler]

-An ST 3 Catcher is not a better Blitzer than a High Elf or Pro Elf Catcher. And in Both Teams the coaches prefer their Blitzer first before a Blitzing Catcher.

Disagree here. Most Elf (Pro & High) coaches I know develop their Catchers for Blitzer roles. They don't need help scoring so they should be used for help on D.

I agree with Darkson that tournie play is not a reason to alter tournie play (or Amazons would have been rightly nerfed a long time ago).

Finally, I thought that Humans were trickier to coach than a lot of times because, like Dark Elves, you need an experience of all tactics & plays as they HAVE to be flexiable to win.
They're not good enough at any one scoring or defending method just to play to one strength (They have a few strengths, which are cheap & effective positionals, flexible linemen, access to all skill types & tactics & good stars).

[mattgslater]

The underpowered Catcher (and yes, I agree he is underpowered) is the only thing that keeps Humans from being too good. Suck it up, and the next time you want to complain about your single mediocre position player, look at your other four positions, then look at the other team rosters out there and remember why.

[mattgslater]

I play Humans. I win with Humans. I beat people's heinies with Humans. Other people I play with play Humans. I've lost more games to Humans than I have lost to any other team race (and against several coaches, too), though I've played only about as many Human teams as Chaos, Undead, Skaven, Wood Elves and Orcs. No, they can't beat everybody the same way, but yes, they can beat everybody. They're definitely a top-tier team, though I wouldn't put them in the running for the single most effective. They're hard for novices to work right, but Humans are a really good team for an experienced coach who's played both bashy and agile already, and wants to learn how to tie it all together.

Read my upcoming article on Human strategy in the November issue of Triple-Pow: "Anything You Can't Do, I Can Do Better."

[stormmaster1]

-An ST 3 Catcher is not a better Blitzer than a High Elf or Pro Elf Catcher. And in Both Teams the coaches prefer their Blitzer first before a Blitzing Catcher.

Disagree here. Most Elf (Pro & High) coaches I know develop their Catchers for Blitzer roles. They don't need help scoring so they should be used for help on D.

I agree with Darkson that tournie play is not a reason to alter tournie play (or Amazons would have been rightly nerfed a long time ago).

Finally, I thought that Humans were trickier to coach than a lot of times because, like Dark Elves, you need an experience of all tactics & plays as they HAVE to be flexiable to win.
They're not good enough at any one scoring or defending method just to play to one strength (They have a few strengths, which are cheap & effective positionals, flexible linemen, access to all skill types & tactics & good stars).

An ST3 MA8 dodge player will qiuickly become ST3 Ma8 blodge. That makes a great blitzer in my book. ST3 catchers would completely transform the team. 4 blitzers for bashing and 4 blitzers for mobility, scoring and ball carrier hunting. I just think ST3 catchers would radically change the team too much.

[Snew]

You're talking about changing a race based on tourney feedback, which is not the correct way of looking at it. Based on the MBBL results, the humans are fine (55.53% w/l).

Maybe they're not a great tourney team, but tourneys are not what the rules are there for.

AND in leagues. How many guys in your league have been played humans last 5 years? And someone else race?

Let's get something straight here right now. For a lot of coaches it's not about this team is better than that team. It's not about This roster is stronger than that roster. They want to be something they're not. We're gamers and so it only stands to reason that there is a good number of freaks around us that really think they ARE Dwarfs or Elfs or whatever. They will play a race just because it's that race. We're all REALLY Humans. You really are and you know who I'm talking about. We don't want to be good but average. We'd like to be a little stronger, a little more agile. That's why you don't see more Human teams. It's not because the roster is poor. It's not because the catchers suck.

That said there has always been a Human team in the leagues I've played in. They've always performed very well to excellent.

And I think they're a great tourney team, especially if you wouldn't rather be mining underground.

[Jural]

AND in leagues. How many guys in your league have been played humans last 5 years? And someone else race?

1) Most leagues we have are represented with at least one human team.

2) I think most coaches have played extensively with humans... they are in the box set, and many learn the game with them. it makes sense that you would become bored with them after awhile.

We see the orc teams almost as frequently... but nobody says they are underpowered!

I wouldn't mind the humans getting a small boost. but I personally feel that with strength 3, MA 8 Dodge catchers, I would be nearly unbeatable. And with AG 4, same thing. And if Dodge were removed, the piece would be worse...

The catchers are a delicate balance. If they are changed to 0-2, maybe they could be made better, but I don't see the reason.

[Pakulkan]

You're talking about changing a race based on tourney feedback, which is not the correct way of looking at it. Based on the MBBL results, the humans are fine (55.53% w/l).

Maybe they're not a great tourney team, but tourneys are not what the rules are there for.

AND in leagues. How many guys in your league have been played humans last 5 years? And someone else race?

Let's get something straight here right now. For a lot of coaches it's not about this team is better than that team. It's not about This roster is stronger than that roster. They want to be something they're not. We're gamers and so it only stands to reason that there is a good number of freaks around us that really think they ARE Dwarfs or Elfs or whatever. They will play a race just because it's that race. We're all REALLY Humans. You really are and you know who I'm talking about. We don't want to be good but average. We'd like to be a little stronger, a little more agile. That's why you don't see more Human teams. It's not because the roster is poor. It's not because the catchers suck.

That said there has always been a Human team in the leagues I've played in. They've always performed very well to excellent.

And I think they're a great tourney team, especially if you wouldn't rather be mining underground.

So, what about skaven coaches?

I play humans both tourneys and leagues, I win with humans. I play so much other races for nine years and, for example, Necros or Dark Elves can do the same as humans, but better. I lose with humans, and when you play with this team, you should do things SO MUCH better than your oponent.